Rear-set leverage (or lack thereof)

Eric P

Active Member
So I've been wanting to put rear-sets on my R5 project for a while. I finally picked up a set of Yoshimura aluminum rear-sets for $47 shipped on ebay. The brake side mounted up extremely easily once I bent the kick starter out of the way. The brake side seems to work really well.

R5_2.jpg


The issue that I'm having is that the shifter takes a lot of force to shift and neutral is impossible to find when I have to mash on the pedal so hard. I made all of my own linkage from an old spare shift lever and rod ends. I have everything as parallel as I can get it. I really have to force the lever to the point where I can see the lever twist a bit. I didn't have that problem with the stock controls so my thought process says that I need to increase the force on my stubby shifter arm. I can probably mount the ball joint closer to the pivot of my pedal to get more leverage. My question is: is it common for this to happen when installing rear-sets? I assumed it would take a little more force than the stock lever, but not a lot more. I guess the stock lever is pretty long, but still... I'll take some measurements and calculate out the torque on the shift rod at some point today.

R5_1.jpg
 
Eric P said:
. I can probably mount the ball joint closer to the pivot of my pedal to get more leverage.

Couldn't see the photos clearly so hard for me to tell, but I believe what you are proposing above will have the opposite effect. Moving the ball joint farther from the pivot point of your pedal will mean more leverage on the shift rod. If it shifted fine with the standard shifter on there, I would look for loose joints and verify that your ball joint on the shifter rod isn't longer than the one on your pedal.
 
So I drilled a hole on the shift lever closer to my foot peg. It seems to shift a lot easier now, but the travel on the lever is really far. Argh!

Ever since I got run over by a car on my rd350, I don't have a lot of strength in my foot and I don't have the range of motion I did before. Somehow I need to get this set up so that it shifts easily without having to move my foot up and down really far. What am I missing?
 
By drilling a hole closer to the peg, you increased the amount it has to pivot to actuate. Rearset looks short on the part that the rod connects to.

Mine are 2.125" from the center of the peg hole to the center of the hole the rod connects to.

How's yours look length wise compared to this? This requires very little to shift, and is as easy as can be.

20151010_110326-1_zpsv0hyjoff.jpg
 
Eric P said:
So I drilled a hole on the shift lever closer to my foot peg. It seems to shift a lot easier now, but the travel on the lever is really far. Argh!

Ever since I got run over by a car on my rd350, I don't have a lot of strength in my foot and I don't have the range of motion I did before. Somehow I need to get this set up so that it shifts easily without having to move my foot up and down really far. What am I missing?

You missed my earlier post, which j-Rod echoed.
 
There is rather a bit more to your shifter linkage than it would seem. Part of how it works in practice is the ergonomics of your foot peg and foot. On the other end, the mechanics of how the shifter mechanism (inside the transmission case) on any particular bike make comparing bikes directly impractical. On your bike, the shift pedal lever is quite long and the shaft it rotates on is actually behind the peg. It takes a fairly large amount of torque to operate the transmission which is ok because you have the leverage with the long pedal. Compare to a factory bike with a linkage like a CB400F. That bike has a very short pedal, and the crank arms are very short, parallel, and with some pretty sloppy rod ends to boot. Works fine on the Honda, but you would find it miserable if not impossible on the Yamaha. Why? Because the transmission itself takes greatly less force to rotate the mechanism. You can't conveniently alter the RD's transmission, but you can replicate the stock pedal's action and locate it in a different spot.

First, consider the difference in pedal length. If it took 10 lbs of pressure to select a gear with the stock pedal, and your new pedal is 75% as long, it now takes 13.3 lbs of pressure to do the same job. That is a big difference. With the same amount of rotation, the throw is shorter with the shorter pedal. So you trade throw for power. Longer pedal = longer throw = less effort. You can make up for this by adjusting the lengths of the two crank arms. If the driving arm is shorter, it will deliver more force than a longer arm. Keep in mind that this is the opposite situation of the pedal. There the leverage of the pedal applies a torque to the shaft. For the driving crank arm, the torque of the shaft results in force at the end of the arm. For example, if you you start with a 12 inch pedal and apply 10 lbs to it, you get 120 in-lbs of torque. If you have a 4" crank arm, 120 in-lbs/4 in = 30 lbs of force, and if the driven arm on your shifter shaft is also 4", you get 30 lbs x 4" or 120 in-lbs of torque again. So you get the same torque with the linkage as with just the direct connect pedal. But if you shorten the pedal to 9" you only get 90 in-lbs of torque with the same 10 lbs of foot pressure. To get the needed 120 lbs of torque, you need to add another 3.3 lbs. However, shorten the driving crank arm to 3" and you get 90 in-lbs/ 3 = 30 lbs of force, and when that is applied to the 4" crank arm on the shift shaft, you get back the originally needed 120 in-lbs of torque. So to maintain the same torque with a linkage, the crank arm lengths must have the same ratio as the change in pedal lengths. In this case, the 9" pedal is 75% as long as the 12" original, and the driving crank arm of 3" is 75% as long as the driven arm of 4".

Unfortunately, there is a problem. This situation ONLY happens when the crank arms are both parallel AND at 90 degrees to the connecting link. Consider the driving crank arm on a linkage with the connecting link above the pedal and shift shaft (like J-rods Honda in the previous post): At 90 degrees, the arm offers the least effort on the link. As the arm rotates clockwise, and the angle becomes less and less than 90 degrees, the force delivered to the link increases due to the inherent mechanical advantage. Similarly, the driven arm sees less and less effort applied to it as the angle between it and the link increases past 90 degrees. In a same length 90 degree parallel crank arm scheme these effects cancel out, but changing the arm lengths and their angles with the link can have a very noticeable effect on the performance.

This gets rather complicated, so consider it from a more basic perspective. Lets say you have your linkage built like the above example, 9" pedal, 3" driving crank and 4" driven crank. The crank arms are parallel, and at 90 degrees to the connecting link when the system is at rest. Assuming the transmission shifts equally easily for upshifts as well as downshifts, the linkage will also apply equal force for upshifts as well as downshifts. When you ride the machine, you find it is easier to downshift. Why? Probably because it is physically easier to apply more force down on the shift pedal than it is to lift it up. Here is one possible adjustment that will help the situation. Remove the driven crank from the shaft and rotate it one spline counterclockwise and lengthen the connecting link to match. Now the angle between the driven crank arm is less than 90 degrees. The angle between the driving arm and the link is still 90 degrees. When you lift up on the shift pedal, the driving arm delivers more linear force the more acute the angle with the link becomes. The driven crank arm on the other hand, has changed. Instead of the torque decreasing as the angle becomes greater than 90 degrees, the torque INCREASES as the angle gets closer and closer to 90 degrees. Maximum torque is achieved at 90 degrees. So upshifting is easier, and downshifting is harder. There is never a free lunch though, anything that gets you needing less effort gets paid for with greater travel or throw.

There is a great deal more to all this but hopefully this hits the high spots. I used to think quality rod ends/bushings/bearings was important. The shorter the crank arms, the greater the impact of sloppy joints. Slop in joints/bearings is fixed, and longer arms result in less rotation required to take up any slack. That said, sloppy joints (up to a point) is irrelevant for how well the system works. Even ridiculously sloppy setups seem to work great as long as there is no binding. Evidently your foot takes up all the slack and the trans can't tell the difference.

And finally, one last thing to consider: Your ankle rotates your foot on an axle that is in a different location than the axle your pedal rotates on. It has an effect on how you perceive the operation of your shifter.
 
jpmobius said:
There is rather a bit more to your shifter linkage than it would seem. Part of how it works in practice is the ergonomics of your foot peg and foot. On the other end, the mechanics of how the shifter mechanism (inside the transmission case) on any particular bike make comparing bikes directly impractical. On your bike, the shift pedal lever is quite long and the shaft it rotates on is actually behind the peg. It takes a fairly large amount of torque to operate the transmission which is ok because you have the leverage with the long pedal. Compare to a factory bike with a linkage like a CB400F. That bike has a very short pedal, and the crank arms are very short, parallel, and with some pretty sloppy rod ends to boot. Works fine on the Honda, but you would find it miserable if not impossible on the Yamaha. Why? Because the transmission itself takes greatly less force to rotate the mechanism. You can't conveniently alter the RD's transmission, but you can replicate the stock pedal's action and locate it in a different spot.

First, consider the difference in pedal length. If it took 10 lbs of pressure to select a gear with the stock pedal, and your new pedal is 75% as long, it now takes 13.3 lbs of pressure to do the same job. That is a big difference. With the same amount of rotation, the throw is shorter with the shorter pedal. So you trade throw for power. Longer pedal = longer throw = less effort. You can make up for this by adjusting the lengths of the two crank arms. If the driving arm is shorter, it will deliver more force than a longer arm. Keep in mind that this is the opposite situation of the pedal. There the leverage of the pedal applies a torque to the shaft. For the driving crank arm, the torque of the shaft results in force at the end of the arm. For example, if you you start with a 12 inch pedal and apply 10 lbs to it, you get 120 in-lbs of torque. If you have a 4" crank arm, 120 in-lbs/4 in = 30 lbs of force, and if the driven arm on your shifter shaft is also 4", you get 30 lbs x 4" or 120 in-lbs of torque again. So you get the same torque with the linkage as with just the direct connect pedal. But if you shorten the pedal to 9" you only get 90 in-lbs of torque with the same 10 lbs of foot pressure. To get the needed 120 lbs of torque, you need to add another 3.3 lbs. However, shorten the driving crank arm to 3" and you get 90 in-lbs/ 3 = 30 lbs of force, and when that is applied to the 4" crank arm on the shift shaft, you get back the originally needed 120 in-lbs of torque. So to maintain the same torque with a linkage, the crank arm lengths must have the same ratio as the change in pedal lengths. In this case, the 9" pedal is 75% as long as the 12" original, and the driving crank arm of 3" is 75% as long as the driven arm of 4".

Unfortunately, there is a problem. This situation ONLY happens when the crank arms are both parallel AND at 90 degrees to the connecting link. Consider the driving crank arm on a linkage with the connecting link above the pedal and shift shaft (like J-rods Honda in the previous post): At 90 degrees, the arm offers the least effort on the link. As the arm rotates clockwise, and the angle becomes less and less than 90 degrees, the force delivered to the link increases due to the inherent mechanical advantage. Similarly, the driven arm sees less and less effort applied to it as the angle between it and the link increases past 90 degrees. In a same length 90 degree parallel crank arm scheme these effects cancel out, but changing the arm lengths and their angles with the link can have a very noticeable effect on the performance.

This gets rather complicated, so consider it from a more basic perspective. Lets say you have your linkage built like the above example, 9" pedal, 3" driving crank and 4" driven crank. The crank arms are parallel, and at 90 degrees to the connecting link when the system is at rest. Assuming the transmission shifts equally easily for upshifts as well as downshifts, the linkage will also apply equal force for upshifts as well as downshifts. When you ride the machine, you find it is easier to downshift. Why? Probably because it is physically easier to apply more force down on the shift pedal than it is to lift it up. Here is one possible adjustment that will help the situation. Remove the driven crank from the shaft and rotate it one spline counterclockwise and lengthen the connecting link to match. Now the angle between the driven crank arm is less than 90 degrees. The angle between the driving arm and the link is still 90 degrees. When you lift up on the shift pedal, the driving arm delivers more linear force the more acute the angle with the link becomes. The driven crank arm on the other hand, has changed. Instead of the torque decreasing as the angle becomes greater than 90 degrees, the torque INCREASES as the angle gets closer and closer to 90 degrees. Maximum torque is achieved at 90 degrees. So upshifting is easier, and downshifting is harder. There is never a free lunch though, anything that gets you needing less effort gets paid for with greater travel or throw.

There is a great deal more to all this but hopefully this hits the high spots. I used to think quality rod ends/bushings/bearings was important. The shorter the crank arms, the greater the impact of sloppy joints. Slop in joints/bearings is fixed, and longer arms result in less rotation required to take up any slack. That said, sloppy joints (up to a point) is irrelevant for how well the system works. Even ridiculously sloppy setups seem to work great as long as there is no binding. Evidently your foot takes up all the slack and the trans can't tell the difference.

And finally, one last thing to consider: Your ankle rotates your foot on an axle that is in a different location than the axle your pedal rotates on. It has an effect on how you perceive the operation of your shifter.

This was really really helpful. I shortened the driving arm as it was easier than adding material onto the driven arm. I seem to have it set up so that I can shift with about the same force (or a little less) as a stock shifter now, but I also seem to have a lot of travel in the lever. I think I really need to draw it out on paper so I can calculate whats going on. I'm amazed at how delicate the balance is between shifting too hard and too much lever travel. I think part of my problem is how much force the transmission needs to shift. I've never had this problem on my Suzukis, mainly because it takes very very little force to shift them. It's really amazing to me that people can get universal rearsets to work on so many bikes. It seems like there's a lot of geometry that would be bike specific.

How hard is it to modify my transmission to shift with less force? I'd like to switch out the internals to a 6 speed rd350 transmission at some point, so the cases will be open anyway. Is it as simple as replacing the spring in the shift detent (#25 in the drawing below) with a lighter spring? If that's the case, I wouldn't even need to split the cases.

ya4199_21.gif
 
yep make a working model with coathanger wire popsicle sticks and nails in the flat plain on a table
this way you can sit down work the model,relax ,observe and understand
and remember the number one most important thing is to have the angle of moment at or very close to 90 degrees at both ends of the link rod just as jpmobious has promoted, the number one importance of this is a fact that is written in stone
 
Changing the coil spring # 25 would be pretty easy, but is not the whole story. First, that spring is also the one that keeps the shift drum in the correct location essentially holding the transmission in the gear selected. Making it weaker will make it easier to rotate the drum, but also make it "lock" into any position with less force. There is a big hair spring not in your exploded view that directly works to center the shifter ratcheting mechanism and so indirectly centers the shifter shaft itself. It is this spring that also works against any force trying to rotate the shaft. No doubt you could greatly reduce the effort needed to shift the transmission by re-engineering these springs. You could also change the cam profile of the detent cam (the cam that #25 works against) to make it less aggressive and thus make it easier to deflevt the #25 spring - again at the risk of less certainty in holding position.

I expect that you will be able to get satisfactory results simply by getting the linkage dialed in - after all, the bike shifts reasonably well with the stock setup.

One last think, make sure the clutch completely disengages. Even a tiny amount of drag will make the transmission very hard to shift. I have an RD with a very heavy clutch that drags a tiny bit when it gets very hot. Damn near impossible to get it into neutral with the engine running. And yes - it has rear-sets!
 
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