Squeaky Engine, maybe valve or camshaft

[cgguy09]

Hey team,
Alright, I'm back. I got my cb350 to run and took it for about 20+ miles at speeds of <55. Felt pretty good for the most part, but it wouldn't idle right, after it warmed up it wouldn't want to idle at or below 1k RPM. Further, the engine was terribly hard to kick over or turn over manually (of course the torquey electric motor can turn it over no problem).

To better diagnose the situation I dropped the points off, loosened all the valve and attempted to turn it over again. I experienced most of the same resistance, perhaps lessened by 10% or so. When I took it off, I could hear a audible squeaking from the engine. couldn't quite tell where, but it sounds like the cam shaft? I've placed a video here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djiRvtfJAsw


As some of you may remember, I just rebuilt the engine, with some trouble. It started when my bolts on the camshaft/spocket backed out. This resulted in two destroyed rocker arms. which were replaced by incorrect rocker arms, before Glenwood (a DTT guy) filled me in on my (and the salvage guy's) folly. Anyway, To assure you of the easy stuff: I timed it perfectly, compression came out to about 160 & 155~158 cold. I had good blue sparks. Used a timing light and my points were perfect. I had my valves gapped perfectly.

I think it might be a bent cam shaft (if thats possible) or perhaps messed up side covers. When I was getting the wrong rocker arms in, I really forced it, maybe that damaged the side covers.

Anyway, I'm open to all and any ideas.

You guys rock,

cFogs

 

[cgguy09]

Hey guys,
I did a little more testing, & the sound is definitely coming from the Left side of the engine, specifically the left side cover...What are the odds that I bent the camshaft at that point. Or that the Left cover is so destroyed that it was bent there?

Could there be anything linked to the cam chain? it doesn't seem like that would be the missing variable here, being that the engine remains perfectly timed and that it can drive in excess of 50 mph.

Thanks guys.

 

[mlinder]

You mean the left cam cover.

I keep getting sidetracked by the "sidecover" statement.

There are a couple of things it could be.

Bent valve squeeking on guide

Improperly installed cam

Failure to install the small washers at the end of the camshaft

Failing cam race

Improper or nonexistent oil flow to that race

Timing being off wouldn't cause a squeek, anyway, I figure. If it's a failing cam race, the bike will run just fine until it doesn't. Which is whenever.

You need to take the top end apart again and figure out what's wrong.

 

[cgguy09]

You mean the left cam cover.

I keep getting sidetracked by the "sidecover" statement.

There are a couple of things it could be.

Bent valve squeeking on guide

Improperly installed cam

Failure to install the small washers at the end of the camshaft

Failing cam race

Improper or nonexistent oil flow to that race

Timing being off wouldn't cause a squeek, anyway, I figure. If it's a failing cam race, the bike will run just fine until it doesn't. Which is whenever.

You need to take the top end apart again and figure out what's wrong.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I meant Left Cam Cover, sorry for the confusion.

To go through the list: I have brand new valve,
I know the cam is installed properly.
I'll need to verify that I use the thin washer, though I'm nearly positive I did.
I'll need to look into the "cam race" Do you mean the oil seals on the cam covers?
The oil flow is a bit of a concern, when I was running the bike, I was getting alot of white-ish smoke from the breather.

I took off the side cover (while the engine was still mounted) and as you can see from the pictures, the cam appears to be eating into the side cover. I wiped some of the "soot" away, but it looked like it was running dry. This leads me to beleive it may be an improper oil flow?

I'm going to run to a salvage yard & grab another side cover & see if I can pop it in. I need to go there anyway to drop something off. I'll see if that changes anything.

It closes at 3 so I gotta run.

Thanks guys.

 

[Redliner]

If it cuts out suddenly with zero hesitation, it could be electrical. Wiggle your fuse with the neutral indicator on and see if it flickers. Be certain not to leave the ignition on for more than one minute.

Then it could be coils wired in reverse polarity. This causes them to overheat and get weak and when it stops firing it will be sudden. If the bike starts again after waiting about twenty minutes, it could be related to the coil.

Finally, as for the resistance and squeaking, my money would say it's related to the cam or chain.

Did you check clearances between camshaft and cam covers and install that washer?

Could also be that the cam chain is too tight. If it's real tight, it can feel like hitting a solid object while turning it over.

 

[cgguy09]

Bit of an update,
I picked up a new left side cam cover & much of the resistance has gone away, no squeaking at all...as you can tell from the pics, it was really eaten up. My only concern is that it may not be getting correct or any oil to that part of the shaft. Anyone know of a good thread that can tell me how to ensure my oil flow is correct. I've done some digging, but I didn't see anything for the cb350s

If it cuts out suddenly with zero hesitation, it could be electrical. Wiggle your fuse with the neutral indicator on and see if it flickers. Be certain not to leave the ignition on for more than one minute.

Then it could be coils wired in reverse polarity. This causes them to overheat and get weak and when it stops firing it will be sudden. If the bike starts again after waiting about twenty minutes, it could be related to the coil.

Finally, as for the resistance and squeaking, my money would say it's related to the cam or chain.

Did you check clearances between camshaft and cam covers and install that washer?

Could also be that the cam chain is too tight. If it's real tight, it can feel like hitting a solid object while turning it over.

Hey Redliner, I checked out the fuse, and she is solid. HOWEVER, I need to look into coil polarity. I got new coils from DCC and I assumed the yellow wire would be the positive and the black the ground. However, after looking into some other threads, I might have made an ass of myself. (I'm looking for a thread right now to tell me how to test it)

On that very note, I found a thread from Honda Twins (another community I frequent) and a guy on there stated his coils were reversed and his breather tube was smoking as a result. (I'm prepared to have an egg of knowledge cracked on my head because I can't explain why this would be a result of reverse polarity) But he said he corrected the coils and that fixed a few problems I too am experiencing (smoke from breather tube, improper idle...yadda yadda) Here's a link to that thread. http://www.hondatwins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=17193

Anyway, I'm going to button things up & see how they look. Wish me luck.

 

[SONICJK]

Chances are your cam is screwed after that.
Post a pic of the end of it.
And I wouldn't run it any more until you get this resolved.

Anyway, yeah, you either assembled it in a sandbox, or you're not getting oil.
If its a cb350 there's a bolt to the right of that cam bearing that you can pull to see if you're getting oil. But you're not, so you need to track down why you're not getting oil.

 

[Redliner]

You have an oil routing diagram? You have an oil routing diagram!

 

[cgguy09]

You have an oil routing diagram? You have an oil routing diagram!

I'm going to masturbate to this....I mean, uh, thanks.

 

[cgguy09]

Chances are your cam is screwed after that.
Post a pic of the end of it.
And I wouldn't run it any more until you get this resolved.

Anyway, yeah, you either assembled it in a sandbox, or you're not getting oil.
If its a cb350 there's a bolt to the right of that cam bearing that you can pull to see if you're getting oil. But you're not, so you need to track down why you're not getting oil.

Damn your eyes! just kidding.
Here are two pics of it, the end is still smooth, But you're right, I noticed it was dry.

Is there a method or just madness to tracking down evaluating oil movement in the motor?

 

[Redliner]

There is an oil channel plugged off by the bolt on the left side of the cam housing. It can show you how or if any oil is flowing there.

I'm going to masturbate to this....I mean, uh, thanks.

Woah calm down now! It's only meant to show you where the lube is supposed to go!

 

[cgguy09]

Pulled off the 10mm on the right side for the oil passage. There appeared to be no oil moving through it when I started the engine. (as another member before correctly guessed).

Are there any either "eye-holes" I can pear into to see if the rest of the motor is getting oil? Or would my next move be to verify the oil pump is working...

I'm trying to logically walk myself through what my next moves should be, not that I verified no oil is flowing to the top part of the engine)

 

[SONICJK]

Generally you plug the oil holes in the head when rebuilding, with either gasket maker or debris etc.

Not the best method but it worked for me in the past so ill put it out there. I got a loss of oil flow so what I did was blow compressed air into that oil check hole on the head, about 50 psi if I remember correctly and that solved my problem.
If you do this though just know that it could reclog at any time

 

[cgguy09]

Generally you plug the oil holes in the head when rebuilding, with either gasket maker or debris etc.

Not the best method but it worked for me in the past so ill put it out there. I got a loss of oil flow so what I did was blow compressed air into that oil check hole on the head, about 50 psi if I remember correctly and that solved my problem.
If you do this though just know that it could reclog at any time

My neighbor has an air compressor. I'll have to see if he'll let me borrow it. That seems like the easiest method to try and clear any blockage.

When I was putting the gaskets on, I already made sure that there was space/holes where they needed to be. Plus I got my gasket kit from DCC, a reputable place.

 

[Redliner]

Gotta blow the passages in the jugs and head out before assembly. You never know what could creep in there. I doubt your gaskets would have anything to do with it.

I'm not sure if I'd ever be sane riding after just blowing any blockage out. Sudden camshaft seizure is, oh wait, you already know...

 

[cgguy09]

Quick question, in that 10mm opening, how much oil should be coming out? should it be like spitting? or does oil only get up there when the engine is running strong...I dipped a paper towel in the hole and there was little to no oil. However, I pulled off the left cam side cover & I found a piece of the old gasket in the oil vein, blocking oil from getting to the cam shaft. When I removed the piece of gasket, oil came out & when I ran the engine, oil continued to flow.

I blew compressed air into the 10mm hole & I could feel it coming through the oil passage leading to the left cam side cover. And given there is plenty of oil going to the side cam cover, and I could feel air movement from the 10mm hole to the cam cover, then why would oil not be making it up there?

Thanks guys

 

[cgguy09]

Hey guys,
some real quick amplifying & clarifying information. when I shot WD-40 in the 10mm hole it came out (flowed out really) from the cam case going to the camside cover & when I reversed the process, the wd-40 came out as well. So it appears that part of the oil system is clear...That being said, when I turned over the engine with the electric start with a paper towel in the 10mm hole, it didn't seem to collect any oil. However, the cam shaft is definitely getting oil now.

So, again, the question I arrive at is does the engine need to be really running before oil (atleast plentiful amounts) get to the 10mm hole area.


Hey, look at that 200 posts!

-Thanks boys.

 

[Redliner]

You should get a pulsating light spurt of oil from that hole when the engine idles. Also be certain that it continues spurting once the engine is at temp.

It pulsates because 350's have a piston pump. Totally normal.

 

[cgguy09]

Rebuilt Engine backfires and blows out blue flame (solved)

You should get a pulsating light spurt of oil from that hole when the engine idles. Also be certain that it continues spurting once the engine is at temp.

It pulsates because 350's have a piston pump. Totally normal.

To get to the end of the book first... it started up first kick and she's producing oil up top! But I wanted to discuss something I ran into for the benefit of others...

When I rebuilt the engine this time, I made sure the everything was properly timed on the electric side and properly gapped on the valve side...But the engine wouldn't fire. It would backfire (really backfire in the intake) and afterfire (the proper name for blue flames & pops out the back). There are a few things that'll cause this (namely improper point gap and improper valve timing. So made sure you triple check the intake (.002 in) and the exhaust (.004 in) and ensure that the plugs are firing at (just after) LF and F. To ensure they are firing take out the plugs, put them in the boots, and turn the alternator through the cycle. Ensure you are actually sparking when you need to.

In my case I 100x's checked everything to make sure I had the right coils to the right wires and it was popping at the right time. Then it occurred to me, if I was seeing blue flames that meant the exhaust port was opening and sparking at the same time (not a good thing when you're trying to training compression). Thus I was 360* off in a 720*. It then occured to me what could cause that...that spark advancer. The piece that goes behind the points and has a mishapen circle on which the points right. See the first picture.

If that oval was flipped it would put the spark cycle 360 degrees off, sparking when the exhaust ports were open.

I had the advancer off and it was in two piece (2nd picture). In my case the center oval (circle) has a line down the middle (you can see it in the first picture) that line needs to be opposite of the big slot on the back of the spark advancer plate. I'm not sure if all the parts have the line on the oval or not, however, if you are experiencing the symptoms above, this may be of the few causes.

I'll take this baby for a spin tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm also hoping the white smoke from the breather tube stops now that the coils are hooked up with the correct polarity. ( for that info see this thread...http://www.hondatwins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=19635)

Thanks boyz.