Brentscafe
Active Member
TommyRocker said:
Ha, same with me. At least we look cool when doing the ton now!!
The new ton
- Thread starter Frog
- Start date
Ha, same with me. At least we look cool when doing the ton now!!
To paraphrase an old saying, "Its not the top speed but the journey". If logic prevailed this site and every other one like it wouldn't exist. There is absolutely no reason for them to exist. Doing the ton with what is now available is no so ho hum. But fortunately some of us march to a different drummer. Reading this thread reminds me somewhat of land speed racing. There are classes from 50cc to unlimited and these classes are populated by pigheaded individuals that are not necessarily desiring to be the world's fastest but determined to extract as much speed as possible from their ride.
For me its taking a bike and an engine (in my case an old Weslake 546cc single) and tryng to see how fast I can make it go. It makes me exercise my brain, my imagination and my (mostly imagined) skills. This to me is far more an "exciting challenge" than to just run down to Malcolm Smith's Motorsports and buy a Hayabusa. Of course the 'Busa is about 50 mph faster than my sidecar but that's not the point. I don't want store bought horsepower made by some anonymous Jap engineer in an office in Tokyo. Even if my speed is way short of a 'Busa I want to do it myself.
Its my journey and I want to make that journey myself. I dread the moment I'll say screw it, I'll just go buy the horsepower and let someone build my frame and do everything for me. My drummer, my march.
For me its taking a bike and an engine (in my case an old Weslake 546cc single) and tryng to see how fast I can make it go. It makes me exercise my brain, my imagination and my (mostly imagined) skills. This to me is far more an "exciting challenge" than to just run down to Malcolm Smith's Motorsports and buy a Hayabusa. Of course the 'Busa is about 50 mph faster than my sidecar but that's not the point. I don't want store bought horsepower made by some anonymous Jap engineer in an office in Tokyo. Even if my speed is way short of a 'Busa I want to do it myself.
Its my journey and I want to make that journey myself. I dread the moment I'll say screw it, I'll just go buy the horsepower and let someone build my frame and do everything for me. My drummer, my march.
t71ford
Over 1,000 Posts
Hmmm. Cool thread. I think the place to which I have gotten is that the Ton is simply a reference number. It's significantly past any posted speed limit in the US, and will therefore earn you a goodly ticket if you get caught at that speed. This makes it 'fast' in the eye of the law. The other bit I've learned (by painful self-experience) is that the Ton is also fast if you crash at that speed. Either way, it is a respectable speed. But...
How does this translate to my bike riding? I've pretty much figured on compartmentalizing my riding. As some have mentioned, the Ton is approached differently on different bikes. The Ton is terribly quick if achieved on my Heritage Softail. Not quite as fast on the Sportster, and virtually boring on the VTR. While it can be fun to ride a slow bike 'fast', I've never been able to get over the fact that you are still going slow. So I've modified my stable to include slow bikes for riding slow, and fast bikes for riding truly fast. I can take my Softail out, ride at car speeds, and have an absolute blast. I don't have to pretend to be racing, don't have to 'tuck in' to make 65 MPH, and can quite literally enjoy my ride, and no longer have to compete with my inner Go-Fast Guy. It's different riding.
The flip side of this, is that once you have experienced riding 160+, you will never view 100 MPH the same again. There is nothing to match the thrill of riding at the absolute top of man and machine, realizing you will probably die if you crash. That said, I've chosen to stop this riding style on the street, and instead limit it to machines prepped exactly for this sort of thing, at facilities equipped exactly for this sort of thing. You have to realize what you are doing, and by trying to do this on the street, you will either be holding back, or you will be getting killed.
One thing I want to make clear, in advocating modern sportbikes, is that riding to the limits of a small, 'vintage bike' is admirable and fun in it's own way, but simply does not compare to riding to the limits of a production GP bike. It might take all of a rider's skill to go fast on a CB750, but you will still only be doing 120 MPH. For me, it took all my skill to ride the 1098, and that thing just laughed at my amateur attempt.This means that there is room to improve, and an even greater lilkilhood that I will never cease to improve.
In my mind, the greater challenge is to become accomplished on the monster machine--something only a very few ever achieve. But the other fact is that most of my riding will be done legally on the streets, and therefore, I have machines that perform accordingly as well. Neither agenda is right, both are equally important to me, and both have their places. Just not together anymore.
Just my .02
How does this translate to my bike riding? I've pretty much figured on compartmentalizing my riding. As some have mentioned, the Ton is approached differently on different bikes. The Ton is terribly quick if achieved on my Heritage Softail. Not quite as fast on the Sportster, and virtually boring on the VTR. While it can be fun to ride a slow bike 'fast', I've never been able to get over the fact that you are still going slow. So I've modified my stable to include slow bikes for riding slow, and fast bikes for riding truly fast. I can take my Softail out, ride at car speeds, and have an absolute blast. I don't have to pretend to be racing, don't have to 'tuck in' to make 65 MPH, and can quite literally enjoy my ride, and no longer have to compete with my inner Go-Fast Guy. It's different riding.
The flip side of this, is that once you have experienced riding 160+, you will never view 100 MPH the same again. There is nothing to match the thrill of riding at the absolute top of man and machine, realizing you will probably die if you crash. That said, I've chosen to stop this riding style on the street, and instead limit it to machines prepped exactly for this sort of thing, at facilities equipped exactly for this sort of thing. You have to realize what you are doing, and by trying to do this on the street, you will either be holding back, or you will be getting killed.
One thing I want to make clear, in advocating modern sportbikes, is that riding to the limits of a small, 'vintage bike' is admirable and fun in it's own way, but simply does not compare to riding to the limits of a production GP bike. It might take all of a rider's skill to go fast on a CB750, but you will still only be doing 120 MPH. For me, it took all my skill to ride the 1098, and that thing just laughed at my amateur attempt.This means that there is room to improve, and an even greater lilkilhood that I will never cease to improve.
In my mind, the greater challenge is to become accomplished on the monster machine--something only a very few ever achieve. But the other fact is that most of my riding will be done legally on the streets, and therefore, I have machines that perform accordingly as well. Neither agenda is right, both are equally important to me, and both have their places. Just not together anymore.
Just my .02
TommyRocker
Been Around the Block
I have found that a stock FLH will top 110 while a nearly stock xl1200 struggles to break the ton. The flh was a lot more composed at speed, too. Above 90 the sportster was kinda scary, whereas I looked down and was surprised to see 110 indicated when the flh ran out of steam.
Wolfie
Live to Ride, an all dat stuff!
Slightly on topic...
My first real bike was a brandy new 1973 Honda CB750, (don't really count the 1971 Harley Sprint SS350 by Aermacchi because that's a whole nother vibrating, valve cover falling off story).
Anyway, used to drag race it a Pittsburgh International Dragway during the 75, 76 season at 13s just hitting the ton.
Even took the 76 Fall Nationals even though I classed in at 750cc's instead of 736, which put me in D/S.
Used to hit the ton on the newly finished Interstate I-79 around Pittsburgh quite often, but had the wobbles over 110...
Owned a lot of bikes since then, including a 74 Kaw Z1A...
Fast forward to today, and I'm back to my all time favorite...
The 1973 Honda CB750, still "just" hitting the ton, and loving it!
My first real bike was a brandy new 1973 Honda CB750, (don't really count the 1971 Harley Sprint SS350 by Aermacchi because that's a whole nother vibrating, valve cover falling off story).
Anyway, used to drag race it a Pittsburgh International Dragway during the 75, 76 season at 13s just hitting the ton.
Even took the 76 Fall Nationals even though I classed in at 750cc's instead of 736, which put me in D/S.
Used to hit the ton on the newly finished Interstate I-79 around Pittsburgh quite often, but had the wobbles over 110...
Owned a lot of bikes since then, including a 74 Kaw Z1A...
Fast forward to today, and I'm back to my all time favorite...
The 1973 Honda CB750, still "just" hitting the ton, and loving it!
Wolfie said:
You really should count it. Last Sunday was the Oct. El Mirage meet. Cold and windy but that didn't stop Mark Summit from taking his 350 Aermacchi to a record 115 mph. Not that easy on dirt and with a nasty cross wind. The sidecar was singing too. 540cc, 25 (at least) year old pushrod single and it cranked off 130.224 mph on a 120 mph record. It has now given me an itch to see if 140 mph can be on the cards. To me this is what its all about. Taking something that wasn't designed to do the ton and doing the ton. I could buy a 1098 Ducati and do 150+ all day and all night without straining the engine. But thats not the point.
Congrats Hoof - there's no doubt in my mind you'll crack that 140 ..........then there's 150.......
While ARE talking about 350's [ say sub 500 ] of the old guard ............. quickest NON race bike sub 500 owned ? Forget the Japanese stuff - most of the 250's were close !
Mine was a 500 Bullet [ in 1962 ] apart from a "works" [?? ] cam and 9.5:1 piston the rest was all handwork - polishing, porting, blueprinting. 78mph out of the showroom, 107mph when completed.
MY personal gratification came from eventually squeezing 102mph from my Connie / Garrard G/P outfit. The speedo was reading 111 mph, but calculating from the revs and gearing etc. it was "only" 102. :.
There WAS some cheating going on. Every ounce of non essential weight was removed as well as the sidecar screen and luggge rack ! It was still 102 though.
Mine was a 500 Bullet [ in 1962 ] apart from a "works" [?? ] cam and 9.5:1 piston the rest was all handwork - polishing, porting, blueprinting. 78mph out of the showroom, 107mph when completed.
MY personal gratification came from eventually squeezing 102mph from my Connie / Garrard G/P outfit. The speedo was reading 111 mph, but calculating from the revs and gearing etc. it was "only" 102. :
.There WAS some cheating going on. Every ounce of non essential weight was removed as well as the sidecar screen and luggge rack ! It was still 102 though.
Funny init BC. I was thinking about this thread this morning. 50 years ago we were struggling to reach the magic ton. Now I'm happy as a pig in mud because I got to 130. Less than 10 mph a decade. Seems like I'm stuck in a time warp. But I can't think of anywhere else I'd like to be. Keeps the brain functioning. Now. How do I get it to 140?
Basement rat
Over 1,000 Posts
I live where roads were drawn on a map with a ruler and square. Straight line aint' shit. dirt biking when you know your not as good as the bike, different story.
Hoofhearted said:
Would driver enclosure be seen as cheating ?
Unfortunately the SCTA (and AMA) have a rule that calls for "unrestricted entry and exit". There is no rigid definition so the final call is up to the scrutineer. At World Finals at Bonneville a sidecar showed up with a belly tank fitted. with a cut out for the rider. Think Burt Munro style. Fine and dandy in the 60s but not today. I hd only seen photos of it and a couple of shots of it running it had the top half removed.
At El Mirage last Sunday I spoke to Matt Schuss (chief of the motorcycle inspectors) about it. He said that they made him remove the top half when he ran and they were still uncomfortable with it. When I saw the photos the bottom half of his body was covered and immediately my mind started racing with the idea of covering in the sides of the sidecar. But talking with Matt he told me that they are thinking of bringing in a new rule that would say the entire body of the rider must be visible.
These rules piss you off no end until you see a crash like the lakester last Sunday. The car was approaching the lights at approxiimately 200 mph when it spun and cartwheeled. The car literally tore itself apart. all that was left was the drivers cage. There was a debris field an 1/8 mile or more. The SCTA has some very strict and enforced rules that people bitch about but when you see a crash like that and the driver gets away with some broken ribs and a collapsed lung you realize that maybe the safety rules are a good idea.
At El Mirage last Sunday I spoke to Matt Schuss (chief of the motorcycle inspectors) about it. He said that they made him remove the top half when he ran and they were still uncomfortable with it. When I saw the photos the bottom half of his body was covered and immediately my mind started racing with the idea of covering in the sides of the sidecar. But talking with Matt he told me that they are thinking of bringing in a new rule that would say the entire body of the rider must be visible.
These rules piss you off no end until you see a crash like the lakester last Sunday. The car was approaching the lights at approxiimately 200 mph when it spun and cartwheeled. The car literally tore itself apart. all that was left was the drivers cage. There was a debris field an 1/8 mile or more. The SCTA has some very strict and enforced rules that people bitch about but when you see a crash like that and the driver gets away with some broken ribs and a collapsed lung you realize that maybe the safety rules are a good idea.
biker_reject
Over 1,000 Posts
I love cafe bikes, but I am a sport bike guy to the core. There is nothing on earth like a litre class race rep. They are near perfect machines. BMW auto likes to call their cars "The Ultimate Driving Machine", but they are so wrong - so wrong. My buddy and I did 180 (according to our speedos) a few times on our way to our favorite twisites. Oh, how I hates the long straight highway rides! We both had '02 gixxer 1k's but each was set up differently, his with a full Yosh race exhaust and PCII, mine with suspension tweeks, D&D slip-on, and PCII. His had better acceleration, but mine was much more flickable. My dream is to one day build a 200 hp Graves Motorsports R1 replica. Perhaps the sport bike "ton" is 200hp at the wheel?
My buddy and I did 180 (according to our speedos) a few times on our way to our favorite twisites. Oh, how I hates the long straight highway rides! We both had '02 gixxer 1k's but each was set up differently, his with a full Yosh race exhaust and PCII, mine with suspension tweeks, D&D slip-on, and PCII. His had better acceleration, but mine was much more flickable. My dream is to one day build a 200 hp Graves Motorsports R1 replica. Perhaps the sport bike "ton" is 200hp at the wheel?
As I think has been said already current 600s and liter bikes make the ton meaningless. But its all relative. The ton with a bike that is not designed to do the ton is an achievement. 180 at Bonneville on a liter bike is ho-hum. If you can't run well over 200 you're wasting your time. And then there's Bill Warner who took his partial streamlined sit on turboed 'Busa to 311 mph. It all depends on what your target is. So what is the new ton? Beats me. My new ton is 140 with the sidecar. For a long time it was 130. That was achieved at El Mirage last Sunday so the bar has been raised. John Noonan's new ton is 260 at Bonneville. The guy building a mid 70s Honda cafe might have his target at 100.
Hoofhearted said:
Hoof have you had the opportunity for pure testing - or is testing done on the salt ! I was thinking of the benefits of doing the wool tuft test with someone alongside videoing the results. Just looking at the side view the tumbledown area at the back of the nose would appear to create turbulance around the driver / rider. Also IMO the rear would benefit from a teardrop section.
I'm certain there is only so far you can go [ that you haven't already ! ] with the motor tuning, so aerodynamics seems to be a good direction.
I agree about the rule makers - they DO have some experience in saving us from ourselves !
I was at Santa Pod the day that a funny car crossed the track at the top end, hit the barrier and ended up in a field in a thousand bits with just the safety cell /cage remaining with the driver strapped in - he survived with relatively minor injuries.
Steve F
Been Around the Block
My first bike was an early 80's CB250, I couldn't even sit on 100kmh on the freeway comfortably let along hit 100Mph. From there I went to a Katana, now that was a big difference, even had a GSXR750 with full Superbike kit on it, it would fly. Now I'm on a CX500 and love it, I'm 42 and high speed doesn;t do much for me now, I like the torque of the twin and the fact I have to 'ride' it to get it to perform. It'll just top the ton as well and I imagine I must have the same feeling my Dad did back in the 60's when he was squeezing the ton out of his Triumph Tiger, laying on the tank and tucked in
Cheers
Steve
Cheers
Steve
CXs can fly too. The 500 partial streamlining class record is held by a CX 500 at 123+ mph. A CX650 took the class record at Bonneville this year at 150+ mph. And I think you hit he nail on the head when you wrote "I have to "ride" it to get it to perform".
