Will this FAIL!?!?
- Thread starter residentdud
- Start date
residentdud
New Member
It's a 350F...was.
residentdud
New Member
I'm getting some new 1" tube and starting over...I'm thinking I have to at this point...
rockcitycafe
I make things.
crazypj said:
my '77 has the passenger pegs on the swingarm
AlphaDogChoppers
Science is true whether you believe in it or not.
You need to do some practice welds. Your welds look terrible. (Not meant as an insult, just a fact.)
Make up some test pieces, then cut them in half lengthwise. (A band saw would be good for that.) then put one end in a vice, and get out your BFH. Try to break it. That is the only way to see how much penetration you are getting. Here is a test weld that I did before doing some frame welding. The first piece I made broke easily. I didn't have enough bevel on the ends of the tube and got poor penetration. This piece I could not break or bend. You can see the marks from gripping it in a vice, and beating it with a hammer. It barely distorted it.
You didn't say what kind of welder you are using. I find stick welding to be the most difficult. I also hate stick welding because it make a lot of smoke and makes a HUGE mess all over the shop.
I mostly do TIG welding with an inexpensive DC TIG welder. It is slower, but more controllable and I am able to get much higher quality welds. It's a little more expensive to get started, but I paid less than $300 for my DC TIG. You also need an argon tank, flow regulator, and a box of thoriated tungsten electrodes.
Second to TIG would be oxy/acetylene welding. It exposes your frame to a lot more heat, but it is more easily controlled.
There is also MIG. I have tried MIG and don't like it much. It makes less attractive welds.
So, enough about your welding. Time to discuss proper gussets. You have introduced bending stresses in sections of tube that previously were designed for primarily compression and tension stresses. At the very least, you will get frame flex that will impair handling. You may eventually get fatigue cracks and total, catastrophic failure. NOT GOOD!
Take your cue from the factory gussets, and make sure your new gussets transfer the stresses back to where they were before. You don't need heavy gusseting like 1/4" steel, but your gussets new to be long enough to resist the bending forces you have introduced and transfer those loads back to where the original frame member that you removed transmitted them. In fact, 1/4" gussets would be a bad idea, because it's so much heavier than the walls of the tube, that you would have a hard time getting enough penetration into the gusset without burn through on the tube.
I would suggest that you cut out all of your work so far, and make new pieces. Tack weld it together, then take it to a welder and have it done by a pro. You are a long ways away from being ready to weld your own frame.
Make up some test pieces, then cut them in half lengthwise. (A band saw would be good for that.) then put one end in a vice, and get out your BFH. Try to break it. That is the only way to see how much penetration you are getting. Here is a test weld that I did before doing some frame welding. The first piece I made broke easily. I didn't have enough bevel on the ends of the tube and got poor penetration. This piece I could not break or bend. You can see the marks from gripping it in a vice, and beating it with a hammer. It barely distorted it.
You didn't say what kind of welder you are using. I find stick welding to be the most difficult. I also hate stick welding because it make a lot of smoke and makes a HUGE mess all over the shop.
I mostly do TIG welding with an inexpensive DC TIG welder. It is slower, but more controllable and I am able to get much higher quality welds. It's a little more expensive to get started, but I paid less than $300 for my DC TIG. You also need an argon tank, flow regulator, and a box of thoriated tungsten electrodes.
Second to TIG would be oxy/acetylene welding. It exposes your frame to a lot more heat, but it is more easily controlled.
There is also MIG. I have tried MIG and don't like it much. It makes less attractive welds.
So, enough about your welding. Time to discuss proper gussets. You have introduced bending stresses in sections of tube that previously were designed for primarily compression and tension stresses. At the very least, you will get frame flex that will impair handling. You may eventually get fatigue cracks and total, catastrophic failure. NOT GOOD!
Take your cue from the factory gussets, and make sure your new gussets transfer the stresses back to where they were before. You don't need heavy gusseting like 1/4" steel, but your gussets new to be long enough to resist the bending forces you have introduced and transfer those loads back to where the original frame member that you removed transmitted them. In fact, 1/4" gussets would be a bad idea, because it's so much heavier than the walls of the tube, that you would have a hard time getting enough penetration into the gusset without burn through on the tube.
I would suggest that you cut out all of your work so far, and make new pieces. Tack weld it together, then take it to a welder and have it done by a pro. You are a long ways away from being ready to weld your own frame.
AlphaDogChoppers
Science is true whether you believe in it or not.
A couple more pictures to show you:
Here is one end of a downtube with a plug fitted into it where the weld will be.
This is how the ends were beveled where the joint was to be. This is a joint now ready to weld.
Here is one end of a downtube with a plug fitted into it where the weld will be.
This is how the ends were beveled where the joint was to be. This is a joint now ready to weld.
This is just my two cents but..................when I build stuff I say to myself "if you have to ask its not strong enough." I believe in over-engineering. Especially when it comes to safety. Good luck with your build
AlphaDogChoppers
Science is true whether you believe in it or not.
My welding mentor is the same way. He kept encouraging me to make anything I weld stronger that I think it has to be. In structural frame welds, I pretty much always back it up with a plug, and often I will do a pocket weld to lock things in place before I do the main weld. It's amazing how much things will move from thermal forces and metal contraction on cooling. I don't weld continuously, but rather a little on one side, then a little on the other. That way, the shrinkage forces balance out as the weld progresses, hopefully balancing out any distortion or built up stresses. I do a lot of jigging, too.
residentdud
New Member
Yeah, I've totally FUBAR'd this frame. Getting a pro to weld it up.
residentdud
New Member
This is what I'm going to do . The red section is to be bumped up to 1" tube.
I've seen it before and it looks to be far more superior in the rigidity category.
I've seen it before and it looks to be far more superior in the rigidity category.
Chimera Moto Works
Been Around the Block
There is Nothing wrong with at least your idea of Kong'ing the frame such as you did on your bike. If you simply go back and support it properly, it'd be fine. Kong'd frames have been around a long time. Not everyone who posted or questioned things in this post/your frame even seemed to know what a Kong'd frame is. Basically, i'm saying, you don't have to necessarily kill the project and start from scratch if you'll reconsider how to brace it for support and using thick enough material.
For those interested in understanding this type of frame modification:
http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/konging/konging.html
Good luck, don't trash the whole thing or give up just yet!
-Cody
For those interested in understanding this type of frame modification:
http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/konging/konging.html
Good luck, don't trash the whole thing or give up just yet!
-Cody
dean owens
Pittsboro, NC
thanks to you guys who not only said it wouldn't work in it's current state BUT also took the time to educate the OP (and people such as myself) as too why. we all have to start learning somewhere. thanks for being willing to share your knowledge and experience.
residentdud
New Member
Yeah I appreciate all the advice. I'm def not done with this...
crazypj
Split personality, I fake being smart
If your getting tube bent up to 'red' line area, go a bit further, cut off entire rear and have curved tubes following wheel curve (make sure its on full 'bump)
Would be a lot different to a normal 'Kong'ed' frame.
Could also just chop it off where you have lines end and fit mudguard directly to swing arm?
Would be a lot different to a normal 'Kong'ed' frame.
Could also just chop it off where you have lines end and fit mudguard directly to swing arm?
residentdud
New Member
Actually, I'm gunna go with the brat style. Just gotta track down some dom tube. You can buy the "Brat" kits for xs650's but instead of taking a chance I'll hunt down some tube and brat the shit outta this baby myself.
AlphaDogChoppers
Science is true whether you believe in it or not.
Let me know exactly what you need. I might be able to help you out. You say you want DOM tube, but you probably don't need that, although it is stronger. I think I can get you DOM 1" tube with 0.125" wall. If you give me what lengths you need, I can see if in have it available. (Short lengths are easier to ship.)
There is also online metals.
http://www.onlinemetals.com/
Great supplier, and excellent info on their Web site.
There is also online metals.
http://www.onlinemetals.com/
Great supplier, and excellent info on their Web site.
gamnoparts
New Member
@Alpha.... What kind & where did you find a tig for $300? And are you happy w/ it?
johngofast
Over 1,000 Posts
Search "lotos tig" on ebay. I've seen some of their TIG / plasma units go for $225 with a 5 year parts and labor warranty and a ton of consumables. Most of them sell around $300-$350. I have two friends that own and swear by them (one has had his unit 2 years) and I've seen the great looking welds they've done with them.
"Burnin' oil and smellin' royal!"
"Burnin' oil and smellin' royal!"
