CB200 rectifier/regulator question/problem

[AlphaDogChoppers]

i can fit ANY rectifier/regulator which has 3 yellow wires going in,

I would guess yes. Three wire regulators are designed to rectify and regulate three phase stators. It looks like the yellow wire, and the white/yellow wire are all windings on the same core, so they would be in phase, therefore a single phase regulator, (like Harleys use,) should work fine if you tie the yellow wire and the yellow/white wires together.

 

[Bert Jan]

Ok, news from the front

I first want to say that it's not that i'm not willing to buy a new regulator or rectifier or a combined unit. I want to learn how this shit works exactly because this bike is my GF's and not a customer bike. I mean, i want to know how it works for future repairs and diagnoses. Therefor i'm very grateful for the input you're all giving and i hope that this thread turns up in google for others with the same problem.

Teazer stated i had altered my wiring loom, but i did not change anything to it. It's all stock. I do want to change it if neccesary, really dont care to solder new wires or cut wires out, as long as it works and as long as i understand what i'm doing and for what purpose.

We're now on the point where we can say any unit with 3 yellows, a red and a green would work. I've come to the conclusion, using my own running cb550 (with 3 yellows,red and green unit) as a test subject, that its not that simple because of the following reasons:

The cb550 gives roughly give or take 6vDC/10amps out of the yellow wires. It's the same amount for all 3 @1200rpm. revving to 4000prm changes the values by 1 volt max, amps go to 15 max.
forgot to check the AC output.....

The cb200 gives 20vDC 1200rpm, up to 40vDC when revved to 4000rpm. The pink, yellow and yellow/white wires give about the same values. (not enough difference to measure accurate)
AC she gives upto 60 volts!

I soldered a spare cb550 unit (wich has original 3 yellows, a red and a green) as follows:
green wire from unit to ground
red wire from unit to battery
yellow wires to pink, yellow/white and yellow. I've tried all 6 combinations.

On battery she runs but when i detach the battery she dies immediatly. Therefor i can conclude the unit i soldered in is not doing anything as far as transferring power to the red wire. Could be this unit is also broken, but that would be a very strange co-incidence
I did not dare to use my 100% sure working unit as i think one bike with this problem is enough

Basicly, i want the following answer:

Bert, you have to discard the yellow and white/yellow from the bike. Attach the pink wire to diode #675 wich can be bought here for 4 dollar. Attach the pink wire to here and ground to here. Power wire goes here: (imagine the image hehe) Now you've got 13.5DC/12amp on the red wire when revved. Voila.

I know this is not going to happen but i really do not understand why there are 3 wires from the stator because they all give more than enough power individually. Why 3?

Also, can anybody explain the function of the yellow wire? It goes from the stator to the rectifier AND the regulator. WHY?

I hope somebody is still as dedicated to solve this as i am. I know Teazer, i can buy the unit you told me about, but than i wont learn shit Appreciate your input though! keep your thoughts coming please!

 

[teazer]

NO. You cannot use a 3 yellow wire rectifier on that bike. Your alternator is single phase not 3 phase. single phase rectifier has 4 diodes and 3 phase has 6. I'm not sure what would happen if you tried it though.

My comment about wiring was that IF you had rewired it. I see your wiring is stock, so use a simple 4 post rectifier and a simple regulator

 

[Bert Jan]

Wow, fast response thanks!
Nothing happened, red wire gave nothing.


Ah, ok understand the wiring altering part

So, as i know understand:
the pink wire is the master, yellow and yellow/white are slaves. Right?
Wich purpose have yellow and yellow/white anyway? I mean, pink gives MORE than enough current...

I understand the stator gives AC and therefor needs 2 wires. But whats the 3rd doing when i can connect them anyway? I'm sorry, it's one of those times where the 'aha' moment is close. i can feel it!

 

[Sonreir]

[quote author=Bert Jan]We're now on the point where we can say any unit with 3 yellows, a red and a green would work.[/quote]

Probably correct, but don't count on it 100%. Regulators usually work differently for permanent magnet systems and for those with an electromagnet. Provided the CB550 is also a permanent magnet system (I'm 99% sure your CB200 is), then it should work. Otherwise it will not.

[quote author=Bert Jan]The cb550 gives roughly give or take 6vDC/10amps out of the yellow wires. It's the same amount for all 3 @1200rpm. revving to 4000prm changes the values by 1 volt max, amps go to 15 max.
forgot to check the AC output.....[/quote]

Yellow wires are AC voltage, not DC. Try measuring them again? The only DC voltage you're going to get out of the rectifier is out of the red or red/white wire.

[quote author=Bert Jan]On battery she runs but when i detach the battery she dies immediatly.[/quote]
This behavior is expected. The bike won't run without a battery, even once it is already running.


[quote author=Bert Jan]Bert, you have to discard the yellow and white/yellow from the bike. Attach the pink wire to diode #675 wich can be bought here for 4 dollar. Attach the pink wire to here and ground to here. Power wire goes here: (imagine the image hehe) Now you've got 13.5DC/12amp on the red wire when revved. Voila.

I know this is not going to happen but i really do not understand why there are 3 wires from the stator because they all give more than enough power individually. Why 3?[/quote]

Not sure who provided the info in the italics, but that doesn't seem like a good idea to me. All of the wires coming from the stator provide current, all should be used.[/quote]

[quote author=Bert Jan]Also, can anybody explain the function of the yellow wire? It goes from the stator to the rectifier AND the regulator. WHY?[/quote]

It's because the regulator needs an idea of how much AC voltage is being generated so it knows how much regulating to do. That's mostly conjecture on my part, but I'd be willing to put money on it being for that or a very similar purpose.

 

[AlphaDogChoppers]

It's because the regulator needs an idea of how much AC voltage is being generated so it knows how much regulating to do. That's mostly conjecture on my part, but I'd be willing to put money on it being for that or a very similar purpose.

I think that may be wrong. How I think it works is that the normal charging circuit which charges the battery is regulated. The additional stator coil powers the headlight, and is not directly regulated. Kind of a hybrid of the old fashioned "balanced" charging system that had no regulation at all and a fully regulated modern charging system.

 

[Bert Jan]

Probably correct, but don't count on it 100%. Regulators usually work differently for permanent magnet systems and for those with an electromagnet. Provided the CB550 is also a permanent magnet system (I'm 99% sure your CB200 is), then it should work. Otherwise it will not.

It will not as i concluded. 550 has probably a electomagnet.

Yellow wires are AC voltage, not DC. Try measuring them again? The only DC voltage you're going to get out of the rectifier is out of the red or red/white wire.

the yellow wires on the 550 give 6 volts AC each. The red one coming out is at 14v 15amp


This behavior is expected. The bike won't run without a battery, even once it is already running.

The bike IS running when i attach the OEM rectifier and no battery. But that gives me 35v :s


Not sure who provided the info in the italics, but that doesn't seem like a good idea to me. All of the wires coming from the stator provide current, all should be used.

bNo one did, i typed that as being my favorite answer

It's because the regulator needs an idea of how much AC voltage is being generated so it knows how much regulating to do. That's mostly conjecture on my part, but I'd be willing to put money on it being for that or a very similar purpose.

 

[AlphaDogChoppers]

Here is a slightly different wiring diagram that may or may not help...

 

[Bert Jan]

I think that may be wrong. How I think it works is that the normal charging circuit which charges the battery is regulated. The additional stator coil powers the headlight, and is not directly regulated. Kind of a hybrid of the old fashioned "balanced" charging system that had no regulation at all and a fully regulated modern charging system.

Well, to be honest, the balanced charging system does ring a bell.

As im now, i have to connect yellow and yellow/white together. That makes one wire, lets call it yellow.

I now have yellow and pink, both AC, out of the engine. How do i get these to give me 14v 10 amps DC?

 

[Bert Jan]

Here is a slightly different wiring diagram that may or may not help...

Goddamn, now he tells me the holy water has to be implemented! Right on it!
Could i be due to not going to church?

Realy like the batman left top haha that should work!

I hope this is to get the spirit up again and not to clearify i am a complete moron

 

[AlphaDogChoppers]

Every time I look at this graphic, I see new gags.

 

[Sonreir]

I think that may be wrong. How I think it works is that the normal charging circuit which charges the battery is regulated. The additional stator coil powers the headlight, and is not directly regulated. Kind of a hybrid of the old fashioned "balanced" charging system that had no regulation at all and a fully regulated modern charging system.

I just looked at the diagram. I think we're both partially correct.

It appears the white wire leaves the stator and heads for the headlight switch. The physical switch operates two electrical switches. One electrical switch turns on the DC voltage for the headlight or highbeam and the other acts as a bridge between the white and the yellow wires from the stator, effectively splicing them together for additional charging.

 

[AlphaDogChoppers]

Sounds about right.

 

[Tremelune]

Some of these old bikes weren't expected to be run with the headlights on during the day. As such, when the headlights are off, only two wires from the alternator are used (to avoid overcharging the battery). When the headlight is switched on, the third wire is connected and provides power to the regulator and rectifier (it does not power the headlights directly, but there is more juice available). Wiring the yellow and yellow/white wires together makes the charging system use three wires all the time, which is effectively redundant if you always ride with your headlights on. No problem.

As pointed out, the distinction between single-phase and three-phase is important, as the components are not compatible. I may have confused you on this one, as I had assumed it was three-phase which is incorrect. Gotta love these old bikes...

 

[AlphaDogChoppers]

Yeah, this is a case where three wires does not mean three phase. It's just two separate coil in parallel with matching phase. Still, a 3-phase regulator for a permanent magnet alternator should work.

My old Suzuki GS450 had an unregulated phase going to the headlight. It still had an on/off switch for the headlight that was disabled. I removed the switch button and ground off a tab on the underside that made the switch unable to move to the off position, so that I can now turn them off. Saved my bacon when I was far from home with two of the three phases of the stator fried. Had to push-start all day because the battery was low, but the bike kept running.

I replaced the stator AND regulator with Electrosport replacements billed to produce 20% more power than the stock stator. The regulator was three times the size of the old one. Never had a low battery problem again. Changing from the stock 30W/50W headlight to dual 55W/60W H4 headlights was too much for the stock charging system. (I also installed relays to power the new headlights so as not to run all that power through the handlebar switches.)

 

[teazer]

On the stock system the Yellow and Yellow/white are connected to each other when the headlight is turned on. They are not connected to the headlamp. The switch has many poles (connecting parts) and when the light is ON, it also connects up the additional alternator coils to charge the battery.

Yellow + Yellow/white go to one pole on the rectifier. Pink goes to another connection on the rectifier. Red connects to battery and the last one is ground.

Pink is the other side of Yellow and Yellow/White and they generate AC. You need to connect both sides to a rectifier to get DC volts. On a modern bike AC volts can be 60-75 volts at 4000 or so.

On a CB200 the Regulator connects to Yellow+Yellow/white, to ground and to the battery or rectifier. If DC volts are too high, the regulator opens an electronic switch. Old style regulators used a small coil and points to open and close. Zener diode systems dump excess as heat.

In a modern R/R both devices (regulator and rectifier) are encapsulated in one container. Old system,s had them as two separate components.

Bert if you want to do it yourself, test the rectifier across all 4 diodes and if that tests out OK, connect the laternator, yellow and pink to two connections, red and green(?) to the other two. You may need a photo to show which leads go to which connections.

Run the engine and test battery voltage (DC) to see if it goes above 14.5v. If it does, you need a regulator.

CB160 and 175 did not use a regulator - the battery regulated. On late Cb175 and all 200s they fitted a regulator. It is small and simple and can only be tested on the bike.

Hope that helps

 

[teazer]

(I also installed relays to power the new headlights so as not to run all that power through the handlebar switches.)

Very smart. I use relays for the ignition as well. Relays are cheap and really help reduce voltage losses across old switches.

 

[teazer]

Some of these old bikes weren't expected to be run with the headlights on during the day. As such, when the headlights are off, only two wires from the alternator are used (to avoid overcharging the battery). When the headlight is switched on, the third wire is connected and provides power to the regulator and rectifier (it does not power the headlights directly, but there is more juice available). Wiring the yellow and yellow/white wires together makes the charging system use three wires all the time, which is effectively redundant if you always ride with your headlights on. No problem.

As pointed out, the distinction between single-phase and three-phase is important, as the components are not compatible. I may have confused you on this one, as I had assumed it was three-phase which is incorrect. Gotta love these old bikes...

Absolutely spot on. Nice explained.

 

[Bert Jan]

Sweet! Thanks all! I now understand it! Damn what a headache haha

 

[Bert Jan]

On the stock system the Yellow and Yellow/white are connected to each other when the headlight is turned on. They are not connected to the headlamp. The switch has many poles (connecting parts) and when the light is ON, it also connects up the additional alternator coils to charge the battery.

Yellow + Yellow/white go to one pole on the rectifier. Pink goes to another connection on the rectifier. Red connects to battery and the last one is ground.

Pink is the other side of Yellow and Yellow/White and they generate AC. You need to connect both sides to a rectifier to get DC volts. On a modern bike AC volts can be 60-75 volts at 4000 or so.

On a CB200 the Regulator connects to Yellow+Yellow/white, to ground and to the battery or rectifier. If DC volts are too high, the regulator opens an electronic switch. Old style regulators used a small coil and points to open and close. Zener diode systems dump excess as heat.

In a modern R/R both devices (regulator and rectifier) are encapsulated in one container. Old system,s had them as two separate components.

Bert if you want to do it yourself, test the rectifier across all 4 diodes and if that tests out OK, connect the laternator, yellow and pink to two connections, red and green(?) to the other two. You may need a photo to show which leads go to which connections.

Well, thats the OEM way right? I did that a few times and this way its giving me the 50volts DC on the outgoing terminals - but the pink and yellow are giving me DC up to 50v anyways...

Run the engine and test battery voltage (DC) to see if it goes above 14.5v. If it does, you need a regulator.

Well, it does, by heaps. The voltage goes up to 35/40. Is AC important as well on the battery terminals? (i mean, does it affect the battery or bike in any way?)

CB160 and 175 did not use a regulator - the battery regulated. On late Cb175 and all 200s they fitted a regulator. It is small and simple and can only be tested on the bike.

Hope that helps

Yeah helps a lot in understanding the system. I have still questions though...

The rectifier's job is to covert AC to DC and its not doing any stepdown work (from 30v to 14v) right or wrong?

The regulator transformes the current to 14 volts. right or wrong? If it's job is to do that, it went south because the voltage does not change when i attatch or detatch it.

Is AC current important in regard to battery loading? Or does a battery not see AC current?

I have connected the white/yellow and yellow wires together and used pink as opposing AC wire on the rectifier, wich gave me 40 volts DC on the red and green wires. Can i assume the rectifier is dead? Or is 40 volts DC output normal? Because, when i check the AC voltage before the rectifier ( between engine and rectifier) it gives me the same amount. In DC as well as AC.


Get theVRRPM2 and then connect the white/yellow and yellow to one incoming terminal. Connect pink to the other incoming terminal and use the 2 outgoing terminals as power and ground. That should give me 14.5 DC.

Is there any other option?