I NEED HELP WITH VELOCITY STACK CARBS SETTINGS. CHEERS!

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Hey guys,

I'm looking for some advice from anyone that has experience with carbs. I'm rebuilding my XS250 with a 400 top end. However, I'm having to use the stock CV32's and swap the internals for the 400 sizes... (which are bigger than the 650!). My quandry is this though:
I'm fitting Velocity stacks, and althought the standard Main is 135 and the Pilot is 42.5... I will go up one in the pilot jet.. but I'm unsure of how large I should go in the Main jet. Usually, when I run pods I go up 2 sizes... but i have only ever run a stack once and I just drilled the f**k out of the stock jet ;) What size do you think for this job? I'm thinking 145... that's 4 sizes up... Please let me know your thoughts if you are so versed. Many thanks! Cheers :D
 
Hi mate, I ended up doing a 145 main, a 45 pilot, and there isn't any pre-jets or air jets like on the XS400 carbs... these little cv32's just have a main, pilot, needle jet... So I went four sizes over on the main, and one up on the pilot. Do you think that was enough? I'm going to run an elec ignition also ;)
 
Well I wish I could tell you that's enough, but only a plug chop will do that. Better to go rich than lean if you're not sure though.
 
Sonreir said:
Well I wish I could tell you that's enough, but only a plug chop will do that. Better to go rich than lean if you're not sure though.

I'm not quite sure i follow.. are you saying that the 4 sizes over won't be enough? I have never heard of a "plug chop" down here in Oz. Please, more info Sonreir. Cheers :)
 
What I'm trying to say is that there's no knowing whether four sizes is enough until you test everything out.

A "plug chop" is the testing process. Basically it involves running the bike at given throttle position for about a minute and then immediately killing the engine with the clutch pulled in. You pull out the spark plugs and take a look at them. The ceramic portion below the electrode should be a light tan color if everything is perfect. Dark brown or black means you're running too rich. White means you're running lean. White with metallic flecks means you're WAY too lean and about to toast your engine. It's best to do this process with new, clean plugs, each time. If you don't have too many plugs laying around or can't afford a dozen new ones, try to clean them as best you can with a wire brush between uses.

To begin with, it helps to have a rough idea as to whether you're running rich or lean. Lean symptoms include the following:
  • Poor acceleration
  • Slow response when you snap open the throttle (less applicable to CV carbs) but engine may pickup for a second or two when the throttle is snapped closed (oversized main jet could mimic this as well)
  • Engine is hot and pings or knocks
  • Uneven running when cruising
  • Performance suffers when the air filter is removed
  • Popping sound from the exhaust when decelerating or popping sound from the carbs when accelerating
  • Better running in warm weather and/or high altitudes
Rich conditions will look/feel like this:
  • Engine won’t return to idle without blipping the throttle
  • Idle is rough or lumpy
  • Poor fuel economy
  • Smoky exhaust
  • Poor acceleration
  • Performance improves when the air filter is removed
  • Better running when cold or at low altitudes
You repeat the plug chop at least three times to get a basic tune. First you get things dialed in at idle. This means ensuring that the carbs are synced and then getting the bike up to temp. Turn the dial of each air mixture screw until you get the maximum RPM out of the engine and then adjust the idle screw to get you at 1200 RPM or so. You should be running a good A/F ratio at idle now.

Assuming your bike feel pretty close to target or perhaps running a little rich, it's time to move on to a plug chop at Wide Open Throttle. This step is not advised if you're running very lean, so take a look at the lean symptoms above and decide if you need to go up a jet size or two before you try this next part. Anyway... find yourself a nice long straight section of road without too many police around. A straight uphill run will work quite well for this, too, without getting so much speed. Get going in top gear and open the throttle all the way up. Run at WOT for a minute and then hit the kill switch, pull in the clutch, and come to a stop. Pull out the plugs and read them. This will tell you if you're running rich or lean on the main jet. Switch out main jets until you get a good reading from a WOT plug chop.

With your main jet sized correctly, you can now do a 3/4 throttle run and check the plugs. This will tell you how closely your needle jet is sized.

After getting the needle jet dialed in, do another run a 1/2 throttle. This will tell you the necessary adjustment on your jet needle. If you're running lean, you want to raise the needle. If you're rich, lower it. Most needles will have five notches in the top than you can use to raise or lower it. You can also use small washers to get more height if necessary. A new needle is not usually needed, but can be required if you can't get a good tune out of the one you have. Needles also have varying degrees of taper. The sharper the taper, the fast the fuel starts flowing.

Finally, do a 1/4 throttle run and this should tell you the state of your slide cutaway. Lean means you need a small cutaway section whereas rich means you need more.
 
And just for additional info... if you're running CV carbs (you're not, but others might be) then your 1/4 throttle settings have to do with the taper of your jet needle.

Since you're running CV carbs, ignore the bit about the bit about the cutaway. Your A/F ratio at 1/4 throttle will be controlled by the taper in your jet needle.
 
Sonreir said:
And just for additional info... if you're running CV carbs (you're not, but others might be) then your 1/4 throttle settings have to do with the taper of your jet needle.

Cheers for that mate. I am indeed running CV 32's. Please tell me, do you you honestly think the #145 main will be big enough for the velocity stacks? If not, how big you think Iwill need to go? The standard size jet is 135. Cheers

NewVelostacksonrebuiltCV32s.jpg


Velosfromthemouthbigsuckers.jpg


just for the visual
 
Oh damn... I thought you said VM32... lol

I think a 145 is a good starting point, but I'll be surprised if it's spot on. You probably won't need to change your pilot jet at all though.
 
Oh yeah... all the above information assumes your compression is good, your timing is set, and carbs are cleaned, synced and in good working order. If any of those things are out, don't even bother with the plug chops as they will be giving faulty info.
 
Sure, the bike was running when I got it, the compression was near perfect at that point in time... but since I've put the 400 top end on... new every gasket in it... have rebuilt the carbs already.. and very very clean ;) They are probably cleaner than when they left the factory. Will synch them when bike finished and doing final tune.. as too will i do the timing then.. should be a sinch with the new electric ignition though....

and still.. I have no idea what a "plug chop" is LOL :o
 
A "Plug Chop" is the process of running the bike at a given throttle setting (under load!) for a minute and then chopping (or killing) the motor. You then look at the plugs to get an idea of the A/F (Air/Fuel) ratio. In the previous post when I mentioned running the bike at WOT, then 3/4, then 1/2, then 1/4 throttle and then looking at the plugs, each of those was a plug chop.
 
Sonreir said:
A "Plug Chop" is the process of running the bike at a given throttle setting (under load!) for a minute and then chopping (or killing) the motor. You then look at the plugs to get an idea of the A/F (Air/Fuel) ratio. In the previous post when I mentioned running the bike at WOT, then 3/4, then 1/2, then 1/4 throttle and then looking at the plugs, each of those was a plug chop.
Dude, that is the single most informative and useful information I have ever received in my life of bikes. Thank you. Your wisdom is astounding. Cheers mate! I shall be sure to do that! ;)
 
Spark plug reading is an art form and 99% of what you find on line is flat out wrong or at least misleading. The thing to keep in mind is that spark plugs need to be between 500 and 800 degrees at the tip. Running a light load for example has the plugs at lower than that temp so they read "rich". If the timing is off, that may push the plug temps up or down leading to more misinformation.

What you want to see in a WOT plug chop is a clean almost white tip, and a nice brown/gray mixture ring down inside the plug. The side electrode should be clean and should have color almost half way back from the tip towards the body. The center electrode should be sharp and should also show color about half way down.

At 1/2 throttle expect to see a browner plug tip because it's not running as hot so it isn't burning as clean.

http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html is the best article for plug reading. It relates to race bikes where we only do WOT plug chops and is written better than I can do.
 
teazer said:
Spark plug reading is an art form and 99% of what you find on line is flat out wrong or at least misleading. The thing to keep in mind is that spark plugs need to be between 500 and 800 degrees at the tip. Running a light load for example has the plugs at lower than that temp so they read "rich". If the timing is off, that may push the plug temps up or down leading to more misinformation.

What you want to see in a WOT plug chop is a clean almost white tip, and a nice brown/gray mixture ring down inside the plug. The side electrode should be clean and should have color almost half way back from the tip towards the body. The center electrode should be sharp and should also show color about half way down.

At 1/2 throttle expect to see a browner plug tip because it's not running as hot so it isn't burning as clean.

http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html is the best article for plug reading. It relates to race bikes where we only do WOT plug chops and is written better than I can do.

WHOA! Just when I though it couldn't get any better... Teazer, mate, you are a gentleman and a scholar. The wealth of knowledge I find on this site is constantly surprising me. I feel like i came home. Thank's guys. Your guidance and carefactor has given me faith in motorcycle humanity again... For a while there I thought we we're all turning into stale, monkey minded 22 y.o. invincible zombie, latest model GSX-R1000 riding Valentino wannabes... and then "WHAMMO! I get smacked by the whole tree of knowledge by guys who give a damn and actually know their stuff. Thank you. Sincerely :) I am in awe.
 
revheadgl said:
A heads up.. A plug chop will only give you an idea if you are using leaded fuel. Which living in Aus as I do you are almost certainly not using. Doing a plug chop using unleaded fuel will literally only give you different shades of grey, it was the lead in the fuel that gave the colour changes.

Spend a few bucks and put your bike on a dyno... they will shove an O2 sensor up the exhaust and it is the only accurate way to get it right.

And as a starting point, to go to stacks from an airbox, a better starting point, and it is only a starting point, is to add @ 20% to the original main jet size. Also as a starting point, wind the idle screws out to 1 12/ to 1 3/4 to begin with.

That's normally how i do it LOL. And i use a lead additive.. although it's still not the same and i have noticed the different shades of grey you mentioned. Last time i just ran pods... and i let my friend Mech do the tune when he does the saftey cert ;)
 
Thank you to everyone that gave me advice :) You have all been so very helpful. Thanks heaps guys. Well, carbs are finished... I have had some time off building due to illness.. but getting close to finishing the XS400 Rasputin build... just a few more welds and some paint and mufflers... and electrics.. and all is good. As for the Carbs... because I am using the standard XS250 BS32 carbs (CV 32mm bore)... but running velo stacks on a 400cc ported and polished top end.. I have done some substantial carb mods. Firstly, I drilled a second hole in the base of the round slide... to aid lift.. (due to them being CV carbs). I went up 1 size in pilot jet... that's 1 size over the 400cc jet size. STD 400 pilot is 42.5... so I went 45.

Also, I figured that the velo stacks will give so much air flow, I decided to err on the side of richness... the standard main jet size of the 400 is 142.5... I went to a 160 ::) Obviously the needle jet is completely different between the 250 and the 400.. they are much different indeed.. the 400 needle mounts completely differently and is a totally different size... so, hence my drilling of the 2nd hole in the round slide... not sure how this thing is going to run... will be installing electronic ignition also... and i have other main and pilot jet sizes here just in case.. will prob be getting my mech to check the exhaust readings on his dooby ;D
 
OK, not to rain too hard on your parade (and I don't care if you think I'm a total dick head, I DO know what I'm talking about)

XS650 uses BS38 (1977) or BS36 so 32's are a lot smaller. ::)

You can only get full throttle at or close to max RPM (CV carbs don't care where you twisted the grip, they work off engine 'vacuum' ??? )

You'll have to be slightly uphill or in 4~6 gear as motor wont be loaded in lower gears.
No matter what anyone tells you, your in for a world of pain trying to jet those things properly with stacks (you can get it running sort of OK, but as you don't know what a plug chop is, you don't have enough experience to get it right)
Either fit mechanical slide carbs, re-fit stock airbox or be prepared for a lot of frustration and mediocre performance
 
crazypj said:
OK, not to rain too hard on your parade (and I don't care if you think I'm a total dick head, I DO know what I'm talking about)

XS650 uses BS38 (1977) or BS36 so 32's are a lot smaller. ::)

You can only get full throttle at or close to max RPM (CV carbs don't care where you twisted the grip, they work off engine 'vacuum' ??? )

You'll have to be slightly uphill or in 4~6 gear as motor wont be loaded in lower gears.
No matter what anyone tells you, your in for a world of pain trying to jet those things properly with stacks (you can get it running sort of OK, but as you don't know what a plug chop is, you don't have enough experience to get it right)
Either fit mechanical slide carbs, re-fit stock airbox or be prepared for a lot of frustration and mediocre performance

Well, I guess, thanks for the input? i didn't know what a "plug-chop" was 5 months ago, but obviously I have learned alot since then. Also, I have run pods on CVs before and I was able to tune them well enough to run fine. So, thanks for your "input"... I am aware they require vucuum to lift the slides.. I drilled the slide base to aid lift... although I have been considering running some CR flat slide mechanicals... just a matter of money.. or lack there of in my case. as for your slightly narcisistic and demeaning comment "but as you don't know what a plug chop is, you don't have enough experience to get it right", okay... maybe I didn't know what a plug chop was back then... I have worked in the industry but everything I learned here was modern workshop crap.. we stick a meter in the exhaust to tell whats going on... and if I end up having "a world of pain" as you put it... I'll just give it to my awesome mechanic mate anyway and he can deal with it. Thanks for your concern, but you really need to learn how to talk to people with a little bit of modesty, empathy and respect. Where i come from, we don't talk to complete strangers like that, nor do we talk to our biker bretheren like that either. Just because you might know what you're talking about, it doesn't give you instant permission to talk to people like crap mate. Stay upright. Cheers
 
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