Too slow for Cafe ? Choosing a first cafe converson bike. (beginner question)

Justinas

Justinas

Active Member
Hi Guys,
sorry if I missed a theme for questions like these, but here is my question.
I'm thinking of buying an older Honda as my first bike and also first Cafe conversion. As winter is coming to the end, and i really would like to get a head start I'm now choosing between two bikes. Honda CB250 from 1973 and 1981 CM400T. I really prefer Cb250 better, as it is cheaper and more classic looking. Although i guess CM400t would be a more practical choice, chopper like seat may be a pain in the ass.

But I really don't see lot of CB250 cafe conversions, although it was a quite popular bike. Is it theoretically too slow for Cafe ? Or it had some other major issues ?
Thanks for any help and suggestions!

Bikes.
CB250:
PA241668.JPG


PA241671.JPG



CM400t:
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Justinas said:
Is it theoretically too slow for Cafe ?
Click to expand...

Build whatever you like. Don't worry about the rest. For all the "performance" talk surrounding cafe's...few of them are actually fast by any sort of current standard. Cafe's were originally about building a faster bike. Today's cafe's are about building a cool looking retro bike. If performance was the primary goal, you'd just buy a sport bike and be done with it.
 
Go with the 250. The 400s are solid bikes, but a huge pain in the ass to "style" as a cafe bike because of the goofy frame.
 
They're both good bikes. But you're right about the frame on the CM. Just ask Sean (Aetsh). The CB250 is a Cb360 basically with a smaller bore motor. Same design, same flaws, but instantly a classic. Gretta was a 360, and there are many other nice ones here. Here's a couple of examples of both.

CM400
honda-cb-400-cafe-racer-02.jpg


Cb250 (cb360, but same bike....and a member's nonetheless!)

tumblr_l3v1y0XfFK1qzdhymo1_500.jpg
 
CB250 anytime :) If you're planning to do more city go for it. If more highway i'd think about it cut cb250 would be a little slower.
 
I thought part of the fun of owning a cafe was trying to get it to do the ton? (100mph) mine couldnt hit it when I first got it, I'll be trying to make it reach it though!
 
Back when cafe racers first started, doing the ton was something special. Your engine and suspension had to be perfect and you had to be lucky enough to not slide from the oil dripping off those old british beasts on the road ahead of you. A lot of people were hurt or killed trying. To me, a cafe racer is just a bike bought cheap, stripped of all the extras and modified with anything available to make it go faster/handle better. I feel it's more about simplicity, form and function than achieving a given speed.

A CB250 would take A LOT of mods to get to 100mph, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to do those mods or shoot for the ton. The 250 will be easier to convert to a cafe bike, but the 400 would likely be a better better for high way riding.

I say buy the 250 and get your feet wet as both a rider and a wrencher. If you want something bigger, you can always pick up another bike later. I have no doubt you'll want to.
 
You're going to have to do some work on the engine of 250 if you want to see the ton. The supposed top speed from the factory was right around 93mph. To hit 100 you may need to find a few ponies and lengthen the gears.

That said, I'd pick the 250 over the 400 for the same reasons mentioned above, but also because small engine bikes and way more fun at WOT. :D
 
CB250G is basically same a CB360 G
It's a bit overgeared so is generally faster in 5th gear than 6th gear (even downhill ;D )
I like them even with their inherent problems (top end oiling)
as long as your not constantly beating it over 8,000 rpm it should last pretty well though.
I've built them out to 391cc (lot of work)
Use it as is and look for a more or less complete 360 motor
 
Go with the 250 - probably faster than most of the Cafe Racers in the day up to 500cc [ Goldies apart ] - damn sight more reliable and will use less oil -ha,ha.

In fact at a posted speed of 93 mph - it will probably be quicker than most 650's of my era.

The ton was often approached but in reality relatively few achieved it.
 
It sounds like you've already made up your mind to get the 250, but want some validation for your decision. Personally, I prefer the smaller motors on cafe racers. I'm working on an old British 250 right now. I very seriously doubt she'll ever hit the ton, but I'm having a great time building her and hopefully not too far from now I'll have a great time riding around town. It all depends on what you really want out of your bike.
 
Wow, thank you all guys for all the fast and informative answers! Now I'm really sticking with 250. If everything is ok with it, I hope to get it on Friday.

I really don't wish to hit the ton, especially with my riding skills :] I just want to get my hands dirty, as I have all the tools from my other projects and at the and, have a simple and reliable commuting bike with that special cafe flare and feeling. Hope everything works out and I will have something to show you in near future.

Thanks again!
 
Definately go with the 250 as the 360 engine will literally bolt straight in. Not sure about regulations in your part of the world, but most places will allow a swap like that if it is a direct swap.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!
 
belch_brother said:
Definately go with the 250 as the 360 engine will literally bolt straight in. Not sure about regulations in your part of the world, but most places will allow a swap like that if it is a direct swap.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!
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I think 250 engine will have to do for now, couse as you noticed, I'm from Lithuania (EU) and even though regulations would allow it, as a former USSR teritory country, older non Russian or Chezh bikes are quite rare in our lands. Parts are too... Well, for starters, 250 should be enough to rock my head in to next projects :]
 
Regarding the mythical Do The Ton.... There are some factors that have helped romanticize The Ton over the years. The heavy frames, poor tires, leaky oil, and just overall build quality, in comparison to all the new technology built into more modern bikes.


Think about drum brakes, slippery road surfaces (those too have improved) and the misty fog of London Town. Reaching The Ton on those twisty winding roads must have been exciting. And ultimately, difficult to attain.


Many of those men were much like the men here. Shade tree mechanics. Hard working blue collar sorts. They gathered and shared stories and ideas about their bikes over a pint or a cuppa. Much like the men and women do here at DTT.


Sure, you can Do The Ton, with the right proper bike. But the build, the idea, the look, the blood sweat and tears that go into the bike in your shed, and the tradition.... Those things make a great cafe, even if they don't ever reach the right side of the speedo.
 
Justinas said:
I think 250 engine will have to do for now, couse as you noticed, I'm from Lithuania (EU) and even though regulations would allow it, as a former USSR teritory country, older non Russian or Chezh bikes are quite rare in our lands. Parts are too... Well, for starters, 250 should be enough to rock my head in to next projects :]
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hey moderators! when does the lithuania sub forum go up? cafe racers are taking over the world... :o
 
There's little connection between doing the ton and cafe racers other than a few riders of the day could hit 100 MPH on a race from the cafe to wherever.

99 percent of riders back in the day didn't race between cafes or anywhere else and even fewer hit 100mph. Bikes did not leak oil all over the place and brakes were just about adequate for the road conditions and traffic at the time.

Lots of myths. But that's fine. BTW my old T100 was timed at 124 at almost 8,000 revs with full race leathers (borrowed) down the motorway, but it was hardly stock.

My 250s before that were lucky to get out of their own way and would never get close to 100 mph if my life depended on it and neither did many bikes back in the day. And in fact, very few of the bikes here will ever see 100 per for a variety of legal and safety reasons, even the ones that could. There are exceptions of course like Kanticoy's Greta which he took out on the track.

I have a project bike that could theoretically go 120 or so and there's no way I'm going that fast on that bike. If I want to go fast I go to a race track where it's safe.

Enjoy the 250, they are good bikes.
 
Friend had a C15 with a LOT of race parts in it.
It would go all the way to P (on the Smiths MPH speedo ;D )
Kept blowing out big end, until I found the pencil he had used to block off the oil line.
Pretty amazing it got 1,500 miles between cranks with only a pencil lead sized oil feed.
Loudests mention of a cuppa suddenly reminded me about it for some obscure reason?
I'm off for a cuppa now ???
 
teazer said:
There's little connection between doing the ton and cafe racers other than a few riders of the day could hit 100 MPH on a race from the cafe to wherever.

99 percent of riders back in the day didn't race between cafes or anywhere else and even fewer hit 100mph. Bikes did not leak oil all over the place and brakes were just about adequate for the road conditions and traffic at the time.

Lots of myths. But that's fine. Enjoy the 250, they are good bikes.
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excuse my edit Teazer -

I have to disagree - of the guys that used to frequent our Lay-Byes and Caffs [ Essex / East London ] in the early 60's, 99% [ probably ] DID race between Caffs. As soon as one or two headed out to the next Caff / Lay-Bye / whatever the race was on and everyone joined in. This wasn't a formal - "Let's race to wherever" - it just happened.

Standard bikes DID leak oil, until you pulled them apart and blueprinted them. Totally agree re: brakes - many times I thought I wasn't going to stop in time! Actually that fine tuned our riding skills as you tended to ride around stuff rather than brake for it.
 
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