1974 CB360 "Pickled"

To check if points are good, there should be continuity between the points when closed. I don't set points with gap measuring, it's misleading. I set points by rotating the crank and setting the points to open at exactly the moment the idle firing mark aligns with the stator. Then check advance with a timing strobe and the bike running.
 
DrJ said:
To check if points are good, there should be continuity between the points when closed. I don't set points with gap measuring, it's misleading. I set points by rotating the crank and setting the points to open at exactly the moment the idle firing mark aligns with the stator. Then check advance with a timing strobe and the bike running.
your method is quite inaccurate and wrong
set the gap then set timimg static then set timing advanced
 
Once again, a subject that seems to be more complicated than it actually is. You can split it up into two sections: (1) the point gap, and (2) the "timing" or the point in crankshaft rotation that the spark plug fires. While the two things are interconnected, it is only a manifestation of the mechanism, they actually are independent in what they do.

The first thing to do is realize that the points are merely a switch. A simple on/off switch. They connect and disconnect electrical current flow to the ignition coil. The coil is a simple electrical transformer which works by taking the 12 volts (often reduced to less, but keeping the concept simple here) from your bikes electrical system and passing it through a bunch of circular windings, hence the name "coil". When you do this, a magnetic field is created within the windings. If you place another coil within the first coil, the magnetic field will induce a voltage into that coil, even though it is not connected electrically to the first. If the second coil has 10 times the count of windings of the first, it will have 10 times the voltage. This is the portion of the coil connected to your spark plug.
Not much happens if you simply connect 12 volts to your coil. The magnetic field builds rather slowly. But suddenly disconnect it, and the suddenly collapsing magnetic field in the primary (12 volt) windings induces a very sharp voltage in the secondary windings and the spark plug fires.
This is the main thing to understand about the points: They are connected to the negative post on the ignition coil and they cause the coil to fire the plug when they open and break the complete circuit to the coil.
The break in the circuit must be swift because the voltage for the plug depends on the rate at which the magnetic flux changes within the coil. If it is too slow due to arcing across the point faces, the magnetic field collapse will not be fast enough to create enough voltage to bridge the gap at the spark plug. So we add a capacitor to the negative side of to coil to reduce the arcing at the points and make the break in the circuit more abrupt and complete. The capacitor is usually located next to the points, and is called a condenser just to make things senselessly confusing. Some systems will actually run without the condenser, but not for long as the points erode very quickly with all the arcing.

So the first thing to do is make sure the switch contacts are clean and sound mechanically. The point faces should be clean and flat and shiny. The faces should be perfectly flat and parallel to each other, and not misaligned. You can clean up old points with a file and fine sandpaper finishing with clean white piece of card stock like a business card. Often even brand new points need a bit of tweaking to get the contacts into good alignment which can be done with some super careful bending with some needle nose pliers. Once the contacts are perfected, it is time to adjust the gap.

The point gap is often referred to as the "dwell angle". This refers to the dwell, or length of time the points are closed in relationship to crankshaft degrees. This is important because the coil needs a certain amount of time to build the magnetic field and also time to cool off before the next cycle. The points also need to separate at least a certain amount to help with a clean break and minimize arcing.

You set the point gap first because it is independent of timing. Rotate the engine around until the points cam has the points you are working on open to their widest point. Crack the hold down screws loose, and adjust the base plate back and forth until the gap between the point faces is to spec, .014" for most bikes. Note that each set of points has its own little base plate mounted on a larger base plate that can also be adjusted independently. The larger base plate is to adjust the timing. You can see that adjusting the points gap moves the assembly closer or farther from the cam, but adjusting the timing plate merely rotates the whole shootin' match around the cam. So adjusting the timing will not affect the gap. However, adjusting the gap will affect the timing, so get that done first. It is very easy to do, but very important to do right. Too much gap, and the coil is not energized for long. Too small a gap and maybe it is energized for too long and does not get enough time to cool between cycles.

Once you get both sets of points adjusted, make sure they are clean and start the bike. Connect a strobe light and set the timing according to the manual. Usually there are marks on the generator rotor. Adjust the timing plate so the appropriate marks align. Usually there is another mark for maximum advance, and when you rev up the engine, you should see those marks come into alignment and then realign with the first set once back down to idle.

Breaker point systems have a lot going for them. They are easy to understand, and super simple to maintain and troubleshoot. They are cheap, very reliable, and most importantly can usually be made to work on the side of the road! However, they do require maintenance as the point faces degrade and the rubbing block wears. But can expect a couple thousand miles at a crack of very good performance if you adjust them properly to begin with.
 
xb33bsa said:
your method is quite inaccurate and wrong
set the gap then set timimg static then set timing advanced

So wrong that it works perfectly for thousands of miles. Smooth idling at 1200 RPM and snappy throttle response up and down with nicely tan plug contacts. I'll stick with my method and everyone else can pull out their hair trying to get it right.
 
I can see now that the subject sounds more complicated than it is. ??? :) Lol. Thank you for taking the time to explain that.
I need to sneak back to the valve adjustment quickly? After I continue to read, I decided to go back and check my tappet adjustment again. I Feel that Im not getting something right. Bear with me. If my rotor is turned near the LT, the piston is visually up and the valves are visually closed, I can set the left cylinder tappets. So far so good. When I turn the rotor counterclockwise to the T (or fairly close) and check to see if the piston is up and the valves are closed, I can't loosen the intake tappet enough to get a gap. Now if I turn the rotor exactly to T, I get plenty of room to adjust intake and exhaust tappets but I need to hold it there. I think it was stated above that I just needed to get these two rotor marks close in order to adjust each set. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, just hoping to find some clarification.
 
I'll go out on a limb and promote less preoccupation with the marks on the generator. You say that on your left cylinder all is well, piston at top center (or as close as you can tell by looking) and both valves closed because evidently the cam is not applying pressure. Excellent! Seeing the marks on the generator corroborate that you have the crank turned where it needs to be, but to me, it is only additional evidence that all is well. Seeing where the piston is and what the valves are doing is to me the real affirmation. So unless you have a pretty exotic custom crankshaft in your motor, either the pistons come up to top center one at a time, or 180 crankshaft degrees apart, or at the same time and fire alternately every 360 degrees.
Your engine has crank throws 180 degrees apart. That means that the other piston will be at top center when you turn the crank half way around. If both valves are not clearly both closed after 1/2 turn, go another full turn and you should be where you need to be.
You simply need the same condition for the other cylinder as you have for the left: piston at top center on the compression/power stroke. Even if the valves are adjusted way too tight so they do not get loose at this point of rotation, you should be able to figure it out by looking at the valve train while you rotate the crank.

Mechanically, it does not matter which way you turn the crank in so far as slack in the chain etc. In the manual, they tell you to go in a particular direction because you either go 180 degrees going one way, but 540 degrees the other way to get on the power stroke for the other cylinder.

If you are at an impasse because the valves are over adjusted too tight for some reason, loosen them up one at a time until you can detect that each is just a tiny bit loose at some point in the cam rotation. When both are loose with the piston at top center you should see the proper marks align and you can adjust the valves with confidence. There should be a lot of crank rotation either way (90 degrees) before a valve starts to open

If you have the cam cover off, you should be able to simply look at the cam and determine that the valves you are looking at are not on the cam lobe.

And DrJ, I do not doubt you get your bike to run ok, but XB is comprehensively correct. Your method leaves the point gap totally random, though it is a pretty good way to get the timing right. You may have been lucky to accidentally have it in a good range, or your machine is unusually insensitive to the coil saturation and cool down time, but this is very poor advice for someone trying to get their bike running properly. It might work or it might totally not, and you would be leaving them a problem instead of solving one. The point gap IS very important. I don't want to dissuade you from giving advice, just be careful to note the difference between "this worked for me" and "this is how it works".
 
The point gap is not magic, it's merely the difference of the radius of the advancer cam from the center to the low point and center to high point. In the end, the advancer cam determines the point gap. What is important is the exact moment the point opens relative to the timing marks on the stator. I don't get my timing to work due to happy accidents. When I check with my timing gun, the spark fires right between the timing marks on idle and full advance. I don't know what else is a better indication of proper timing. My bike runs very well, not just ok and it stays running ok for many miles. We may have a difference of opinion and no I'm not an expert but from repeated attempts at ignition timing this is the most consistent method I've used.
 
This is in no way a difference of opinion. I promoted that your method is a good way to accurately set the timing. That is a simple undeniable fact for anyone that knows the basics. It is equally true that pretty much everything else you have said indicates that you have a lot to learn before you can claim to know know the basics. Sorry.
 
You can set the points to break at the correct time but if the dwell isn't right it will not run properly as the coil will not have time to charge properly if gap is too big or the gap will be too small and coil can overheat because it's charging for too long. (either will cause a miss-fire over about 7K rpm)
0.012" ~0.016" is correct points gap, I try to aim for 0.014"
The dwell is determined by the gap.
If your using a dwell meter as well as setting firing point that is the correct way to do things as it takes into account less than flat point faces (pips and pits, etc)
Genuine manual should give a dwell angle in degrees and percentage (may have to hunt for it though?)
DrJ, it's a cam not an advancer cam, the advancer mechanism rotates the cam on pivot to earlier firing point based on movement of bob weights and levers.
If your not using a dwell meter or feeler gauges, it IS a happy accident for things to be right at idle and max rpm
Timing shouldn't 'move' from full advance position after ~3,000rpm to red-line. If it does, it's because of incorrect dwell
 
Im embarrassed to say that I broke down today and ran the motor up to a friend. Hes been a Honda mechanic for around 35 years. He looked at what I had, turned the rotor to exactly LT on the compression stroke, set the left tappets. Turned 180, held the rotor at T and set the rights side. He put on a new points set, showed me how to get it set properly for next time and sent me on my way. I wasted too much time on the motor and need to get things moving along. Right now Im working on the tank trying to figure out where to get a bung and a fancy cap combination so I can have it welded in and start some body work. Im also thinking of changing out the coils/wires just to eliminate issues down the road. I thought some red wires might look good with my design. Anyone know where to get a set of coil wires at a reasonable price? Im not paying 8.00 a foot, there has to be something else available. Just needs to be 7mm correct? Any suggestions?
 
sometimes yer better off just seeing it done in front of your eyes ,thats some great steps forward,congrats

just go to the nearest napa store for bulk wire cut off the reel
make sure you specify non resistor copper wire
 
Looks great. Two quick questions. What coils did you guys go with and is there a benefit to running the plug nipple with resistor wire and cap or non resistor stuff? I hope that's the correct way to say it. :eek: ;D

Forgot to post a pick of the progress.
 

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Re: 1974 CB360 "Pickled"

I used some new coils meant for a yamaha xj650 I think? It's in my build thread, give me a minute. They were $28 for both and they mount in the stock location using the stock hardware.
 
Sonreir, Do you know if those coils allow for the wires to be swapped out? At that price I will probably get them any way. Oh I almost forgot, when some of the guys switch to rear sets, what are they using in place of the rear footpegs to take up the additional space in the rear motor mount bolt? Machine a spacer? Is there a different bolt? Cut and rethread original? Thanks
 
I don't think so. The XT600 coils also use spade connectors, so a bit of wiring will be necessary, too. They bolt right up to the stock mounts though, which is nice.

The other option is the XS750/XS850 coils. The wiring and plug and play, but you will need to fab a bracket from a small piece of sheet metal and drill four holes in it.
 
Hell with it. XT600's it is! I need to read up on that rectifier you sell too. ???
 
I have used the high output coils from MikesXS as well. They have single and twin output versions and are very powerful - look like Dyna knock-offs. Authentic Dynas are also very good if pricey. Also used the Yamaha OEM Mitsubishi knock-offs from Mikes - better than the OEM's. I use solid core wire like XB suggested and authentic NGK resistor caps. Primary coil resistance needs to match the ignition system you are using, so if you are keeping the points, replace your coils with stock resistance value coils.
 
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