Powder coat or polish CB450 Build!
- Thread starter Zonda
- Start date
Awesome looking project Rod. I love what you are doing with the bike.
Question: How did you get the idea for the battery? I am great with mechanics but a complete dumb dumb when it comes to electrical. How did you put the battery together and get the right specifications watt, volt, amp, wise?
Keep up the good work I am excited to see more progress.
Question: How did you get the idea for the battery? I am great with mechanics but a complete dumb dumb when it comes to electrical. How did you put the battery together and get the right specifications watt, volt, amp, wise?
Keep up the good work I am excited to see more progress.
Canuck Plumber
Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!
This is a really great project. I think those rims look extremely wild.
I thought I might mention to you, Bouncer that if you take the stock battery down to a battery supply shop (I use Battery World here) they can get the specs on the battery and build one with different cells. I was going to go with lithium cells but the cost was too much. Either way, they can give you some options in order to get the battery smaller or reconfigured.
I thought I might mention to you, Bouncer that if you take the stock battery down to a battery supply shop (I use Battery World here) they can get the specs on the battery and build one with different cells. I was going to go with lithium cells but the cost was too much. Either way, they can give you some options in order to get the battery smaller or reconfigured.
Bouncer,
The battery came about when i wanted to use a different battery other than the lead/acid ones. did some research and found that the majority of rechargeable batteries could not stand up to the constant drain and recharge of the bike (or no guarantee).
The lead/acid battery is still the best for the bike as it can dump huge amps quickly and has a fast recharge. in short it can give a lot very quickly and has a small recovery cycle...
So what to use? the Optima range or batteries uses a spiral wound lead/tin battery that has a low discharge rate, ie it can hold it's voltage for a long time, so it is ideal for emergency generators etc. but its down site is that it will not dump its power fast, to start an engine it dumps it power slowly.
This is what i used, and as the batteries are available in "D" size 2 volt 2.5 amp. I would need to get six and wire them in series.
OK series and parallel, (parallel) if you have six 2 volt 2.5 amp batteries and wired the - poles together and the + poles together (like power poles) then you would have 2 volts and the potential of 18 amps..ok?
Now if you got the same batteries and wired them from - to +(ie connected the positive terminal to the negative terminal and +-+-+-+ etc) and continued, the first battery would have a spare - terminal and the last battery would have a +...got that... you would have 12 volts (2 volts x 6) and 18 amps (2.5 amps x 6)
Hows the head?? ;D now lets talk amp hours, Ha Ha, a 12 volt battery with 1 amp hr can hold the drain of a lamp (etc) that drains 12 volt and 1 amp for 1 hr before the voltage starts to drop.
so in theory a 12 volt 18 amp hr battery can sustain 12 volts and 18 amps for 1 hr. or 12 volts and 36 amp for 1/2 hr before the voltage starts to drop.
or think of it this way lets say you have a 12 volt bike, and this bike draws 5 amps while it's is running, now if the motor ran for a whole hour the bike would have drawn 5 amps in total for that hour, or 5 amp hours (5Ah), and if it ran like this for 24 hours it would have drawn and consumed 120 Amp-hours in total, 5Ah x 24h = 120Ah.
Ok this doesn't help us much as we have volts and watts. so how do you convert watts to amps and how can we use this to judge how big a battery we need.
You simply take the stated Watts, and divide that by the Voltage and this gives you the Amps that the item will draw
So lets say for example you have a 55 Watt light globe (like the type you find in your head light) and divide this 55W by the 12V that is used to power it and you end up with 4.5A at 12V...good to know as this is the size fuse you will need...4.5 amps
so if you add up all the watts from your bike you will know how many amps you will need to power it.
coils 35w
headlight 55w
tail light 25w
brake light 8w
tach/speedo 2 x 3w
indicators 2 x 8w
to start the bike without the starter you will need enough amps just to power the coils.....35w or 35w / 12 volts ...3 amps, so a 12 volt 3 amp hour battery would be enough to run the bike....in theory.
ok then we have a total of 137w divided by 12volts.......11.41 amps just to run the bike......at night... ;D
to start the bike we need 1440w for the starter motor and 35w for the coils...1475w divided by 12....123 amps for a very short time, lets say it takes 5 seconds to start the bike and we have 12 amp hr battery, so it can deliver 12 amps for 1 hr or 12 amps 3600 seconds (1 hr is 3600 seconds)...still with me :
then we can divide 3600 seconds by 1475 amps and find that the battery can deliver 1475 amps for 2.5 seconds BEFOR it starts draining the battery....so as the battery starts to drain the math needs to be done again at 11 volts and 10 volts.....I hope that i have not confused you.....we notice this as we try to start the bike with the starter motor and it gets weaker and weaker untill no volts/amps are left...
Now just a note this is all well and good if you only run a battery......as our bikes have an alternator/AC generator this provides the necessary amps to run the bike and recharge the battery... my CB450 SHOULD produce around 13.8 volts and 8 amps, which i doesn't :'( and as i draw around 14 amps just riding it (lights on) battery drains down weekly....this is one thing that i'm fixing for this bike. my local elect wizzard is rewinding the AC generator to produce over 20 amps ;D ;D ;D
If i have got this wrong could someone correct me, it's been a while since i taught elect theory...
Rod from oz
The battery came about when i wanted to use a different battery other than the lead/acid ones. did some research and found that the majority of rechargeable batteries could not stand up to the constant drain and recharge of the bike (or no guarantee).
The lead/acid battery is still the best for the bike as it can dump huge amps quickly and has a fast recharge. in short it can give a lot very quickly and has a small recovery cycle...
So what to use? the Optima range or batteries uses a spiral wound lead/tin battery that has a low discharge rate, ie it can hold it's voltage for a long time, so it is ideal for emergency generators etc. but its down site is that it will not dump its power fast, to start an engine it dumps it power slowly.
This is what i used, and as the batteries are available in "D" size 2 volt 2.5 amp. I would need to get six and wire them in series.
OK series and parallel, (parallel) if you have six 2 volt 2.5 amp batteries and wired the - poles together and the + poles together (like power poles) then you would have 2 volts and the potential of 18 amps..ok?
Now if you got the same batteries and wired them from - to +(ie connected the positive terminal to the negative terminal and +-+-+-+ etc) and continued, the first battery would have a spare - terminal and the last battery would have a +...got that... you would have 12 volts (2 volts x 6) and 18 amps (2.5 amps x 6)
Hows the head?? ;D now lets talk amp hours, Ha Ha, a 12 volt battery with 1 amp hr can hold the drain of a lamp (etc) that drains 12 volt and 1 amp for 1 hr before the voltage starts to drop.
so in theory a 12 volt 18 amp hr battery can sustain 12 volts and 18 amps for 1 hr. or 12 volts and 36 amp for 1/2 hr before the voltage starts to drop.
or think of it this way lets say you have a 12 volt bike, and this bike draws 5 amps while it's is running, now if the motor ran for a whole hour the bike would have drawn 5 amps in total for that hour, or 5 amp hours (5Ah), and if it ran like this for 24 hours it would have drawn and consumed 120 Amp-hours in total, 5Ah x 24h = 120Ah.
Ok this doesn't help us much as we have volts and watts. so how do you convert watts to amps and how can we use this to judge how big a battery we need.
You simply take the stated Watts, and divide that by the Voltage and this gives you the Amps that the item will draw
So lets say for example you have a 55 Watt light globe (like the type you find in your head light) and divide this 55W by the 12V that is used to power it and you end up with 4.5A at 12V...good to know as this is the size fuse you will need...4.5 amps
so if you add up all the watts from your bike you will know how many amps you will need to power it.
coils 35w
headlight 55w
tail light 25w
brake light 8w
tach/speedo 2 x 3w
indicators 2 x 8w
to start the bike without the starter you will need enough amps just to power the coils.....35w or 35w / 12 volts ...3 amps, so a 12 volt 3 amp hour battery would be enough to run the bike....in theory.
ok then we have a total of 137w divided by 12volts.......11.41 amps just to run the bike......at night... ;D
to start the bike we need 1440w for the starter motor and 35w for the coils...1475w divided by 12....123 amps for a very short time, lets say it takes 5 seconds to start the bike and we have 12 amp hr battery, so it can deliver 12 amps for 1 hr or 12 amps 3600 seconds (1 hr is 3600 seconds)...still with me :
then we can divide 3600 seconds by 1475 amps and find that the battery can deliver 1475 amps for 2.5 seconds BEFOR it starts draining the battery....so as the battery starts to drain the math needs to be done again at 11 volts and 10 volts.....I hope that i have not confused you.....we notice this as we try to start the bike with the starter motor and it gets weaker and weaker untill no volts/amps are left...Now just a note this is all well and good if you only run a battery......as our bikes have an alternator/AC generator this provides the necessary amps to run the bike and recharge the battery... my CB450 SHOULD produce around 13.8 volts and 8 amps, which i doesn't :'( and as i draw around 14 amps just riding it (lights on) battery drains down weekly....this is one thing that i'm fixing for this bike. my local elect wizzard is rewinding the AC generator to produce over 20 amps ;D ;D ;D
If i have got this wrong could someone correct me, it's been a while since i taught elect theory...
Rod from oz
Thanks Stu that's what we're here for
Ok...so the forks are off getting re chromed : and the hubs are beining picked up tomorrow from the powder coaters ;D the engine is waiting for cam rings so what to do while waiting...the seat. so cut and bent a 1mm sheet of steel (love working with steel it's so forgiving) as a mould and formed the base for the seat out of pre-preg carbon just 4 ply's, as the seat will be a sandwich panel the skins do not need to be overly thick. the overall shap is fine and only the edges need to be trimmed.
i still want to use the factory seat fitting and the front latch so the base looks a little strange at first,
but the sides will come down to the same plain as the tank so when you look allong the bike the lines match up (got to have symmetry ;D ;D)
The original seat rubbers will be bonded on to the seat base to give some comfort and the front latch will be recessed into the seat to mate up with the latch.
Next i'll fit the honeycomb core get the final shape.
Rod
Ok...so the forks are off getting re chromed :
and the hubs are beining picked up tomorrow from the powder coaters ;D the engine is waiting for cam rings so what to do while waiting...the seat. so cut and bent a 1mm sheet of steel (love working with steel it's so forgiving) as a mould and formed the base for the seat out of pre-preg carbon just 4 ply's, as the seat will be a sandwich panel the skins do not need to be overly thick. the overall shap is fine and only the edges need to be trimmed.
Rod
Ok, the carbon pre-preg (pre-impregnated) is 220 weight and if you cured one layer you would not be able to stand on it... the grade of epoxy resin used in pre-preg cloth is always of a high quality. The material is aviation grade and surplus to my requirements and is autoclave cured, the four layers gives me even load distribution in eight directions and will allow smooth load transition to the honeycomb core.
Rod
Rod
Mysta2,
How are you applying the resin and the cloth? there is nothing wrong with poly and dry cloth, in fact if done with a little guidance can be very strong and light.
Are you applying the dry cloth to the mould and then wetting it out?
There are some techniques that can help in the weight area.
The cloth i use is extremely light and for its weight is one of the strongest carbon fibre cloths used. four layers (ply's) is 0.80 mm (0.031') thick and weighs in at 132 grams (4.65 ounce) but when combined with the core and another 4 layers will be able to hold the weight of an average size car..
Rod
How are you applying the resin and the cloth? there is nothing wrong with poly and dry cloth, in fact if done with a little guidance can be very strong and light.
Are you applying the dry cloth to the mould and then wetting it out?
There are some techniques that can help in the weight area.
The cloth i use is extremely light and for its weight is one of the strongest carbon fibre cloths used. four layers (ply's) is 0.80 mm (0.031') thick and weighs in at 132 grams (4.65 ounce) but when combined with the core and another 4 layers will be able to hold the weight of an average size car..
Rod
background to foreground is the foam buck, fiberglass mold, carbon part. It's 4 layers (I couldn't tell you what weight or size, that was a long time ago) I stretched each layer over the buck to get it going in the right direction as far as shape, then applied resin to the mold and layed the carbon into it applying more resin over the top till it was nice and wetted out followed by the next layer, more resin, and so on. I obviously used too much resin as it pooled in the top of the seat bump.
The next big thing on my project list is the fairing for 69 and I've been thinking about the possibiity of making two sided molds (it will be at least 3 parts) and wetting the carbon to one side of it and smashing them together squeezing out any excess resin, thereby making a really light part.
HerrDeacon
Over 1,000 Posts
mysta2 that carbon seat looks amazing. You have any pics of it on a bike? I haven't used it before but would love to give it a try.
yeah, a ton of 'em
http://dotheton.com/index.php?topic=6039.0
http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/viewtopic.php?t=5844&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I know bagging it is the right way to go, sometimes laziness gets the better of me. I'll have to figure out a way to do that for the fairing.
http://dotheton.com/index.php?topic=6039.0
http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/viewtopic.php?t=5844&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I know bagging it is the right way to go, sometimes laziness gets the better of me. I'll have to figure out a way to do that for the fairing.
HerrDeacon
Over 1,000 Posts
mysta2 said:
Oh wow, I've always loved that seat but never realized it was carbon fibre. Love that thread you have on totalmotorcycle, pretty extensive. I have it bookmarked so I can continue reading it. Thanks.
Thanks Mate, I forgot to mention that the battery is a combined total discharge voltage of 13.1V, this is great, as the bike will not have a starter and as these are low discharge, it holds 12-13V for quite some time and at idle the lights stay bright and indicators work great.
Bad news :'(
The gent that did the head work cut one inlet valve seat deep, due to the previous owner’s handy work, and this has taken all the adjustment out of the valve train for that valve, the valve sits around 1/32 open when assembled I could cut the valve tip but the torsion bar is now unloaded and there is no fix for that! So today I’m taking my spare head to get rebuilt, lets hope this one will be ok.. :-\
Rod
Bad news :'(
The gent that did the head work cut one inlet valve seat deep, due to the previous owner’s handy work, and this has taken all the adjustment out of the valve train for that valve, the valve sits around 1/32 open when assembled
I could cut the valve tip but the torsion bar is now unloaded and there is no fix for that! So today I’m taking my spare head to get rebuilt, lets hope this one will be ok.. :-\Rod
Canuck Plumber
Badges? We don't need no stinking badges!
Ouch....
