83 XV920 - yeah it's a virago, but not for long
- Thread starter DuckHunterJon
- Start date
DuckHunterJon
Active Member
pacomotorstuff said:
Thanks for the compliments. The front of the subframe mounts to the tank riser I welded on the frame. Just a hole on either side of the riser and 10 mm bolts. That riser is 3/16 thick, I'm thinking it will be plenty. The lower mounts mount to the same location that the old subframe (top mounts) attached to. As for the welding, I wish I could make it an artform like some here. I get good penetration, I just have been out of practice for too long. Primer and paint make it look like a million bux.
DuckHunterJon
Active Member
Swivel said:
Thanks Swivel, exactly the feed back I was looking for on the gussets. The tubing is .125 wall, I thought that was on the heavy side, but not positive. I'm not worried too much about extra weight, this will always be a heavy pig (though, hopefully slimmed down from stock). It will definitely be a solo seat only. It is only as long as it is because I want to hide the battery in the tail section, and it's a beast of a battery (AGM 16 AmpHr). I think it could crank over my truck!
DuckHunterJon
Active Member
Swivel said:
Unfortunately, that is the stock amperage battery. Everything I've read on the virago starting systems, they need all the help they can get. I could possibly look into a LiPo, but I don't know if they go that high.
Sepp Koch was big on placing the battery where the centerstand currently resides. I'll take a look at that, again, just don't know as it will fit. I'll also play around with building it in under the seat. I just really need to get off my wallet and order a rear tire to check clearances.
DuckHunterJon
Active Member
Swivel said:
I'll have to see what it looks like back in that spot. I'm planning on putting the rearset's in the pass peg location, and I think the battery may interfere - it sticks out like a sore thumb on the side. I'll have to look to see if I can tuck it in any closer to the frame.
DuckHunterJon
Active Member
Swivel said:
I'll take a look, to be honest, I had just seen other XV builds put the rear set's back there and figured it was all good. I haven't played around with positions yet while sitting on the bike. I would love to ditch the stock brackets, but they do provide lower engine mount points. Maybe I could fab new plates that are similar, but shorter than the stock ones.
I'll also have to revisit putting the battery low under the swing arm. I like the idea of keeping mass low and centralized (a la Buell), and it would allow for a much smaller tail section. I'll be playing with it and shoot some pics of mock ups. Thanks for the counterpoints!
Few observations. 
For a single seat, the rear support hoop is way too long enough ! Ergonomically your butt needs to be just at the front of the wheel so the additional length is not neccessary. Hear what your saying about repositioning the battery, but there's plenty of smaller, lighter batteries out there - and gel filled that can live in any orientation. I've been using the batteries from BMW Oilheads - plenty of cranking power and significantly smaller / lighter. Such a battery will lay flat on it's face under the front of the seat and only take up 3" or so of depth.
Re: the footrest mounts. Have you tried sitting on the bike with a seat mocked up ? Attached is an early mock up of our 60's Cafe Racer projects. The test crash dummy is only 5' 9", but you have to bear in mind with the lower seat height, the knees will take an aweful bend if the pegs are any further forward. The mounts shown are just early mock up as there will also be strengthening plates put back in to replace the structural integrity of the alloy stockers.
Finally ......... as a design engineer [ albeit cars ] of over 45 years, I'm not a fan of a hammered over end fixing - as in your lower seat hoop. Again I hear what you're saying about going for a neater look, but that method will put stress risers into the area where you go from flat back to round tube. Your WHOLE body weight will be effectively "hingeing" on those mounts. Just imagine your body weight x the length of the diagonal all acting on that mount as you move from side to side ??????????????????
A nicely welded tube at right angles [ a la Duke ] will look good and be a much sounder fixing.
Just observations, please don't take offence ;D
Nice to see more VV / TRs being built ..................
For a single seat, the rear support hoop is way too long enough ! Ergonomically your butt needs to be just at the front of the wheel so the additional length is not neccessary. Hear what your saying about repositioning the battery, but there's plenty of smaller, lighter batteries out there - and gel filled that can live in any orientation. I've been using the batteries from BMW Oilheads - plenty of cranking power and significantly smaller / lighter. Such a battery will lay flat on it's face under the front of the seat and only take up 3" or so of depth.
Re: the footrest mounts. Have you tried sitting on the bike with a seat mocked up ? Attached is an early mock up of our 60's Cafe Racer projects. The test crash dummy is only 5' 9", but you have to bear in mind with the lower seat height, the knees will take an aweful bend if the pegs are any further forward. The mounts shown are just early mock up as there will also be strengthening plates put back in to replace the structural integrity of the alloy stockers.
Finally ......... as a design engineer [ albeit cars ] of over 45 years, I'm not a fan of a hammered over end fixing - as in your lower seat hoop. Again I hear what you're saying about going for a neater look, but that method will put stress risers into the area where you go from flat back to round tube. Your WHOLE body weight will be effectively "hingeing" on those mounts. Just imagine your body weight x the length of the diagonal all acting on that mount as you move from side to side ??????????????????
A nicely welded tube at right angles [ a la Duke ] will look good and be a much sounder fixing.
Just observations, please don't take offence ;D
Nice to see more VV / TRs being built ..................
two-smoker
I reject your reality, and substitute my own!
Everyone has their own idea of what gives better control and more comfort... I personally cannot ride unless my feet sit directly under my butt, but that's me. An article I read summed a good but of it up really well. What is comfortable has a lot to do with where you're from, and it relates to how a person sits in the saddle of a horse in that area. In America, you'll notice that cowboys sit with their feet way out In front of them, and steer with their arms, like you'd sit on a Harley. In Europe and Asia, equestrians sit with feet underneath them and steer with their body, like on a sport bike. To-may-to, to-mah-to.
pacomotorstuff
Coast to Coast
Good morning Duck,
Thought I'd wade into to the fray regarding subframes and footpeg mounts but please temper these responses with the facts that they're based on my XV920RH chain drive model and I'm only 165cm (5 foot 5-ish) so the ergonomics may be wrong for you.
Anyway, most modern subframes are a simple "V" shape when viewed from the side (think any modern dirt bike) and they don't have the diagonal braces (I'm using an aluminum rear subframe on one of my RD Yamahas). Cross braces - no argument, put 'em in.
You're using 3/4" OD steel tubing with a /125 wall, which is pretty stiff - I've got some in the shop and I'd say it was up to the task. On my first attempt, I used 1" OD, .062 wall mild steel tubing and mild steel brackets up front to bolt to the frame, no gussets and gas welded everything. I try to follow aircraft tubular construction whenever I can and they're usually not big on gussets but the sketches of the gussets shown seem to be the correct shape. I fishmouthed the tubing with a 1" hole saw in the drill press after I'd made up a temporary jig to get the angles correct.
I was given some 3/4" OD, .032" wall chromoly for welding practice and if I get good enough with my acetylene torch to use it, I will. And before people get on their high horses about welding chromoly with gas, there've been millions of successful welds done that way, the procedures and precautions are straightforward and have been done for probably a 100 years.
Anyway, my footpeg mounts are at the swingarm pivot - again, I'm pretty short and that's what felt good to me when I was on the bike. I may have put them aft 2 more inches but they feel pretty good to me where they are. One of my cunning plans was to use an extra long pivot bolt through alloy plates and capture the swingarm bolt outboard as well as inboard, but haven't done it yet but did make up the plates for the pegs and pedals.
I've attached a few photos for you to look at. Obviously not done yet, still have to set up the master cylinder for the rear brake and the linkage, but the pedal is done and rotates in a bronze bushing. The left side uses the stock shift lever and I've merely extended the rod with small diameter tubing after I cut the original rod. It's brazed together but from the photos you can see it need painting or plating or something.
I want my battery as far forward and as low as I can get it. I even had it beside the cylinders in one mockup, hidden by a full fairing, but the fairing isn't in the plans right now so it looked pretty goofy. A gel pack under the swingarm might work for you, but I've got my header and mainstand there - it'll remain, but be modified for clearance.
The first guy that comes up with a kick start modification for the Viragos, let me know.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Pat Cowan,
Vintage Motorcycle Fiberglass
Thought I'd wade into to the fray regarding subframes and footpeg mounts but please temper these responses with the facts that they're based on my XV920RH chain drive model and I'm only 165cm (5 foot 5-ish) so the ergonomics may be wrong for you.
Anyway, most modern subframes are a simple "V" shape when viewed from the side (think any modern dirt bike) and they don't have the diagonal braces (I'm using an aluminum rear subframe on one of my RD Yamahas). Cross braces - no argument, put 'em in.
You're using 3/4" OD steel tubing with a /125 wall, which is pretty stiff - I've got some in the shop and I'd say it was up to the task. On my first attempt, I used 1" OD, .062 wall mild steel tubing and mild steel brackets up front to bolt to the frame, no gussets and gas welded everything. I try to follow aircraft tubular construction whenever I can and they're usually not big on gussets but the sketches of the gussets shown seem to be the correct shape. I fishmouthed the tubing with a 1" hole saw in the drill press after I'd made up a temporary jig to get the angles correct.
I was given some 3/4" OD, .032" wall chromoly for welding practice and if I get good enough with my acetylene torch to use it, I will. And before people get on their high horses about welding chromoly with gas, there've been millions of successful welds done that way, the procedures and precautions are straightforward and have been done for probably a 100 years.
Anyway, my footpeg mounts are at the swingarm pivot - again, I'm pretty short and that's what felt good to me when I was on the bike. I may have put them aft 2 more inches but they feel pretty good to me where they are. One of my cunning plans was to use an extra long pivot bolt through alloy plates and capture the swingarm bolt outboard as well as inboard, but haven't done it yet but did make up the plates for the pegs and pedals.
I've attached a few photos for you to look at. Obviously not done yet, still have to set up the master cylinder for the rear brake and the linkage, but the pedal is done and rotates in a bronze bushing. The left side uses the stock shift lever and I've merely extended the rod with small diameter tubing after I cut the original rod. It's brazed together but from the photos you can see it need painting or plating or something.
I want my battery as far forward and as low as I can get it. I even had it beside the cylinders in one mockup, hidden by a full fairing, but the fairing isn't in the plans right now so it looked pretty goofy. A gel pack under the swingarm might work for you, but I've got my header and mainstand there - it'll remain, but be modified for clearance.
The first guy that comes up with a kick start modification for the Viragos, let me know.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Pat Cowan,
Vintage Motorcycle Fiberglass
Swivel said:
Gee, thanx for that Swivel ........I can now see where I've been going wrong for the past 50 years and oh maybe 250 Cafe Racers.
Try this at home children. Hammer over an end [ as per the seat mount ] and put the flat end in a vice. Just move the tube at the 16" - 18" extremity - not too hard at right angles to the flat plane. Any movement at the flattened end ?
OK Swivel ........just one question. Do you place the pegs in the same position for every rider - assuming that all 3 riders aren't clones size-wise. I don't think it's particularly helpful to have a dick banging conversation about past successes. I too raced for best part of 20 years without losing control [ self induced at least ] and can count quite a few successes, although admittedly never a 1-2-3, as I always ran a team of one. 8) Apart from our Cobra race series.
BTW - I wasn't advocating that the position my pegs have ended is the ideal for everyone - I simply posed the question. For MY application - body / limb size, weight, those pegs are ideal FOR ME, and I would suggest there isn't a single ideal position for everyone as most riders are different shapes, sizes and weights. In fact I have a 12th. scale mannequin that I use to give me a rough idea of whether a position is likely to be ergonomically successful before I start a project and that depends on many criteria based on the one item that is generally fixed - ie the seat. Same mannequin is used for all my designs, including 3 and 4 wheeled versions.
Glad we sort of agree about the hammered over end - not sure about your age group, but do you remember those aweful mudguard stays just post war ? Hammered over ends for cheapness - and always used to fracture !
Most folk who raced a Manx or Dommie - used to weld that subframe joint for safety - and Norton ended up welding the whole assembly rather than using that flattened end device, their reasoning - to stiffen the back end.
All three of my Airheads had the rear subframes welded for the same reason. Prevention rather than cure.
........just one question. Do you place the pegs in the same position for every rider - assuming that all 3 riders aren't clones size-wise. I don't think it's particularly helpful to have a dick banging conversation about past successes. I too raced for best part of 20 years without losing control [ self induced at least ] and can count quite a few successes, although admittedly never a 1-2-3, as I always ran a team of one. 8) Apart from our Cobra race series. BTW - I wasn't advocating that the position my pegs have ended is the ideal for everyone - I simply posed the question. For MY application - body / limb size, weight, those pegs are ideal FOR ME, and I would suggest there isn't a single ideal position for everyone as most riders are different shapes, sizes and weights. In fact I have a 12th. scale mannequin that I use to give me a rough idea of whether a position is likely to be ergonomically successful before I start a project and that depends on many criteria based on the one item that is generally fixed - ie the seat. Same mannequin is used for all my designs, including 3 and 4 wheeled versions.
Glad we sort of agree about the hammered over end - not sure about your age group, but do you remember those aweful mudguard stays just post war ? Hammered over ends for cheapness - and always used to fracture !
Most folk who raced a Manx or Dommie - used to weld that subframe joint for safety - and Norton ended up welding the whole assembly rather than using that flattened end device, their reasoning - to stiffen the back end.
All three of my Airheads had the rear subframes welded for the same reason. Prevention rather than cure.
DuckHunterJon
Active Member
BC - I hear you on the flattened ends, and I know all about stress risers (I used to be a design engineer before entering systems engineering). My thoughts were that as long as I crossbraced it sufficiently, lateral loads would be kept to a minimum. The joint/tubing should take the compressive loads with no problem. Also (not that this means a thing) the stock 2 up, sofa seat and frame were supported at the same points with flattened ends. Either way, I will probably revisit the joints once I have cross braced it and judge it's stress load.
As for the frame being too long, I built it so the end of the hoop is 2.5" past the plumb from the axel. Just looking at others, that's what I was guessing. My arse will be well ahead of that. If I end up relocating the battery yet again, I can shorten it further as I won't need as large a tail section.
Great discussion, I'm all ears on this stuff! Thanks.
As for the frame being too long, I built it so the end of the hoop is 2.5" past the plumb from the axel. Just looking at others, that's what I was guessing. My arse will be well ahead of that. If I end up relocating the battery yet again, I can shorten it further as I won't need as large a tail section.
Great discussion, I'm all ears on this stuff! Thanks.
pacomotorstuff
Coast to Coast
Funny about that pounded over tubing ends - that's the way Yamaha built the original subframe I took off the bike and tossed - about .120 wall, slightly over an inch OD and weighed about 20 pounds. Looked like it was flattened in a big press and a hole drilled through it - not a particularly close tolerance one, either.
I just looked at some old Yamaha TZ250B photos - I had a B model way back when - and holy cow were the pegs ever far back, about where Beach's and Duck's bikes have them. But then again the tank was a mile long, too. I recall stretching a bit to reach the clipons and on my ersatz TR2, I'll probably shorten the tank a little bit to make it easier for short me to ride.
Beach made the same comment I did about getting the ergonomics right for the individual - what fits me probably won't fit you. Usually not a problem unless the rest of the members of your endurance racing team are a LOT taller than you LOL (voice of experience?... maybe).
I'm really enjoying this build. I figure we all can enjoy our cafe comraderie while celebrating our diversity and individuality, right?
Pat Cowan,
Vintage Motorcycle Fiberglass
I just looked at some old Yamaha TZ250B photos - I had a B model way back when - and holy cow were the pegs ever far back, about where Beach's and Duck's bikes have them. But then again the tank was a mile long, too. I recall stretching a bit to reach the clipons and on my ersatz TR2, I'll probably shorten the tank a little bit to make it easier for short me to ride.
Beach made the same comment I did about getting the ergonomics right for the individual - what fits me probably won't fit you. Usually not a problem unless the rest of the members of your endurance racing team are a LOT taller than you LOL (voice of experience?... maybe).
I'm really enjoying this build. I figure we all can enjoy our cafe comraderie while celebrating our diversity and individuality, right?
Pat Cowan,
Vintage Motorcycle Fiberglass
Duck,
this is the procedure I use for setting up a bike [ CR style ].
Swivel mate - all this tongue in cheek, hope you realise and don't take offence.
Position the seat first as this is the one item that is least adjustable. I then bolt a large piece of ply / similar to cover all the possible foot peg positions. Then position legs body and arms in a comfortable position. For ME, the knee joint angle is critical as my right knee is arthritic and refuses to bend like when I was 25 :[ or even 55 ]. I then drill a hole and mount a peg / bolt / whatever to simulate the footrest position. That allows you to make certain that the gearlinkage / brake actuation is OK without your toe being too close to the road / track [ see current Moto GP ]. Unlikely you will get it right first time!
Next [ for me ] comes the positioning of the bars - again a comfortable bend in the shoulder / elbow/ wrist joints without overstretching.
Re: flattened ends - no matter WHAT you do to eliminate the stress at that point - it IS a stress riser. All I'm suggesting, is that rather than go to all that extra effort and weight [ and maybe destroying the neat look you want ] a nicely constructed joint as per your top tube will look professional and do a good job. Like I said, these are just observations. The flattened over end has NO engineering merit over other methods - purely done to save a dime or two.
Back to the seat ........ again I would mock something up. Using flat cardboard in sillouette and photographed from the side will give you a good idea of how it will look. There's many a seat that has been spoiled because the side profile of the bum stop / cowl looks all wrong. Obviously if you have a seat or 2 hanging around that's better. As for the battery, I went up to my spare bike yesterday and mounted the BMW gel battery flat between the top seat rails. On my CR there's no problem as I'll be running BSA style side panels which will hide the battery, so I have options. The BMW battery is approx. 1" smaller on all dims and 1/2lb lighter. It is better packaging anyway if you situate the battery within the wheel base. There are much smaller batteries out there now giving the same cranking power, but at a price.
BTW Pat - LOVE your tank !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
this is the procedure I use for setting up a bike [ CR style ].
Swivel mate - all this tongue in cheek, hope you realise and don't take offence.
Position the seat first as this is the one item that is least adjustable. I then bolt a large piece of ply / similar to cover all the possible foot peg positions. Then position legs body and arms in a comfortable position. For ME, the knee joint angle is critical as my right knee is arthritic and refuses to bend like when I was 25 :
[ or even 55 ]. I then drill a hole and mount a peg / bolt / whatever to simulate the footrest position. That allows you to make certain that the gearlinkage / brake actuation is OK without your toe being too close to the road / track [ see current Moto GP ]. Unlikely you will get it right first time!Next [ for me ] comes the positioning of the bars - again a comfortable bend in the shoulder / elbow/ wrist joints without overstretching.
Re: flattened ends - no matter WHAT you do to eliminate the stress at that point - it IS a stress riser. All I'm suggesting, is that rather than go to all that extra effort and weight [ and maybe destroying the neat look you want ] a nicely constructed joint as per your top tube will look professional and do a good job. Like I said, these are just observations. The flattened over end has NO engineering merit over other methods - purely done to save a dime or two.
Back to the seat ........ again I would mock something up. Using flat cardboard in sillouette and photographed from the side will give you a good idea of how it will look. There's many a seat that has been spoiled because the side profile of the bum stop / cowl looks all wrong. Obviously if you have a seat or 2 hanging around that's better. As for the battery, I went up to my spare bike yesterday and mounted the BMW gel battery flat between the top seat rails. On my CR there's no problem as I'll be running BSA style side panels which will hide the battery, so I have options. The BMW battery is approx. 1" smaller on all dims and 1/2lb lighter. It is better packaging anyway if you situate the battery within the wheel base. There are much smaller batteries out there now giving the same cranking power, but at a price.
BTW Pat - LOVE your tank !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
two-smoker
I reject your reality, and substitute my own!
I tried really hard to not comment, but I'm not that intelligent. How you sit on a horse is a function of the saddle, not the horse. And it's just evolution. The horse came first, and how we ride motorcycles is descended from how we rode horses. And all I was saying is you may not like what I do. It's a matter of preference. That doesn't make it wrong. my apologies for not being able to keep my mouth shut. The bike this thread is about is much more interesting than I am.Swivel said:
Regarding footpegs, Joe Minton did a couple of articles back in the '80s on modifying the Virago. One of the best mods was the addition of rearsets made by CC Products. Pics of the rearsets are attached which show how/where they were located. Someone with a little imagination could duplicate them without much trouble.
Attachments
DuckHunterJon said:
My edit TJ
here's a good use for pounded over ends to tubes - holding up the canopy for my beer terrace in Saxony !!!! NOT for engineering solutions. This is tongue in cheek BTW.
turbodog
Active Member
I also thought the passenger peg location on my '83 Virago um... call it a 'special'... was too far back, but decided to try it before deciding on a final location. 3 years later, the pegs are still there. In fact, i am gearing up to swap in a chain drive engine, and am worried that the XV-RH footpeg position is too far forward...
No lap times to report but when circumstances require a quick weight shift from butt to feet, I can do so quite quickly and easily.
Also, my rear subframe is made much the same as Duck's, and has been holding my 180 lb ass up for 3 years now, no problem. Remember, unlike the twin-coil-over-shock bikes cited above, the rear suspension forces are NOT resolved through the subframe on the XV.
No lap times to report
but when circumstances require a quick weight shift from butt to feet, I can do so quite quickly and easily. Also, my rear subframe is made much the same as Duck's, and has been holding my 180 lb ass up for 3 years now, no problem. Remember, unlike the twin-coil-over-shock bikes cited above, the rear suspension forces are NOT resolved through the subframe on the XV.
