MBellRacing
Wheel Jockey for Hire
Seriously...
So here's the story, with a recent update. I bought my fairly pristine 1962 CB77 about a year ago, got it running, and found that it needed some new piston rings. I decided to do a big rebuild of the engine since it was all coming out. The valves looked burnt and coked so I looked for replacements. NOS valves are quite expensive and were all manufactured in the late-50s. I figured that newer valves, in any condition, were likely better technology than 50s stuff, right? Well a clean looking website called Apex Cycle had a number of replica parts for the Superhawk, including some new valves for a VERY fair price. I ordered them along with some rare high-top, high-compression pistons from the 70s. I got my spare block bored to fit the new pistons and had my head assembled by a guy that builds 1000hp boat motors. I assembled the motor and got it running. It puttered around perfectly and sounded great with those pistons... I even took video...
Cb77 First Start
It idled for about 15 minutes before I started breaking it in (as I do with all my car race motors) which involves about 10 seconds of idle followed by light revs to 1500-2000rpm, doing so for about 15 minutes at a time before letting it idle again for another few minutes. I got done with one rev cycle when the motor let out a loud *clack clack clack PING*. I knew that sound.
I took apart the motor to see a milkshake of aluminum. There was obvious impact between the valve and the piston, the latter was completely destroyed.
There was question that maybe the piston was too tall and since the Honda 305 motor "throws" it's valves with the tall cam lobe I didn't blame the valve itself right away. Upon further inspection it appeared that the valve stem had snapped, but it looked as if maybe it had broken due to the impact. I took it to a new engine builder with a new set of Apex Cycle valves (since they were 1/3 of the price of NOS valves.... bad mistake). This builder is experienced with drag motors and stock car engines, old tech stuff where cutting a valve to check out it's inner bits is usual. While they were reassembling my head they told me that these look like "China sh*t valves" due to the fact that they seem very brittle. They said it'll probably work fine, but they wouldn't trust them too much.
I reassembled the engine for a second time, this time with Wiesco pistons that are proven to work very well and are a correct stock height. Once again, the motor puttered along very nicely. I broke it in a bit more gingerly this time, even giving it a heat cycle to wear in the parts.
CB77 running AGAIN!
I got it together and rode it around the block to get an initial idea about the jetting. A bit rich, but running beautifully. I brought it in to the garage to re-jet it, got it running again, and started resetting the idle. As soon as the motor got down to a comfortable 800rpm... *clack clack clack PING*. Yup. Motor #2 down. I removed the rocker covers and spark plugs. Of course, the stem was still in the retainer but the valve head was in the combustion chamber.
I threw a few wrenches at the wall and kicked over the stair rails in my garage before deciding I need to cool down, grab some dinner (in liquid, alcoholic form), get some sleep, and talk to Apex about their valves. I form an email explaining that their product had cost me two engines. I explained that it seemed they over heat treat their product which makes them brittle, advising them that they should either revise the manufacturing or remove the product from their site. I said that the vintage Honda world doesn't need a place to waste money on valves that break engines.
I got my response a few hours later, "Why don't you go f**k yourself?"
Very businesslike and responsible answer, not exactly what I expected to hear. I was ready for some form of disbelief or theory of misunderstanding, not such a brief, rude comment back. I checked with the Honda305 guys and they all scolded me for not searching Apex Cycle on the forum-- there was a PLETHORA of bad experiences with their service, peppered with a few people mildly pleased with the fact that their part got there on time.
I just spoke with Charley from Charley's Place in San Francisco (famous around here) who has my motor taken apart right now. He said he has never seen a valve bend and break in the fashion that this one has. This time it was crooked at such a bizarre angle that it has damaged the guide and the boss in the head that holds it. Now my vintage, original, early-style 305 head needs re-welding to be repaired. Two sets of pistons, two sets of poor valves, one set of valve springs, two sets of guides, and now a head casting down the toilet... Apex Cycle is still in business. PLEASE do not support them. I'd love to put these guys out of business and make sure whoever runs that place never earns a penny off someone else again. Fast food establishments and janitorial jobs exist for assholes like this.
Spread the word!!!
So here's the story, with a recent update. I bought my fairly pristine 1962 CB77 about a year ago, got it running, and found that it needed some new piston rings. I decided to do a big rebuild of the engine since it was all coming out. The valves looked burnt and coked so I looked for replacements. NOS valves are quite expensive and were all manufactured in the late-50s. I figured that newer valves, in any condition, were likely better technology than 50s stuff, right? Well a clean looking website called Apex Cycle had a number of replica parts for the Superhawk, including some new valves for a VERY fair price. I ordered them along with some rare high-top, high-compression pistons from the 70s. I got my spare block bored to fit the new pistons and had my head assembled by a guy that builds 1000hp boat motors. I assembled the motor and got it running. It puttered around perfectly and sounded great with those pistons... I even took video...
Cb77 First Start
It idled for about 15 minutes before I started breaking it in (as I do with all my car race motors) which involves about 10 seconds of idle followed by light revs to 1500-2000rpm, doing so for about 15 minutes at a time before letting it idle again for another few minutes. I got done with one rev cycle when the motor let out a loud *clack clack clack PING*. I knew that sound.
I took apart the motor to see a milkshake of aluminum. There was obvious impact between the valve and the piston, the latter was completely destroyed.
There was question that maybe the piston was too tall and since the Honda 305 motor "throws" it's valves with the tall cam lobe I didn't blame the valve itself right away. Upon further inspection it appeared that the valve stem had snapped, but it looked as if maybe it had broken due to the impact. I took it to a new engine builder with a new set of Apex Cycle valves (since they were 1/3 of the price of NOS valves.... bad mistake). This builder is experienced with drag motors and stock car engines, old tech stuff where cutting a valve to check out it's inner bits is usual. While they were reassembling my head they told me that these look like "China sh*t valves" due to the fact that they seem very brittle. They said it'll probably work fine, but they wouldn't trust them too much.
I reassembled the engine for a second time, this time with Wiesco pistons that are proven to work very well and are a correct stock height. Once again, the motor puttered along very nicely. I broke it in a bit more gingerly this time, even giving it a heat cycle to wear in the parts.
CB77 running AGAIN!
I got it together and rode it around the block to get an initial idea about the jetting. A bit rich, but running beautifully. I brought it in to the garage to re-jet it, got it running again, and started resetting the idle. As soon as the motor got down to a comfortable 800rpm... *clack clack clack PING*. Yup. Motor #2 down. I removed the rocker covers and spark plugs. Of course, the stem was still in the retainer but the valve head was in the combustion chamber.
I threw a few wrenches at the wall and kicked over the stair rails in my garage before deciding I need to cool down, grab some dinner (in liquid, alcoholic form), get some sleep, and talk to Apex about their valves. I form an email explaining that their product had cost me two engines. I explained that it seemed they over heat treat their product which makes them brittle, advising them that they should either revise the manufacturing or remove the product from their site. I said that the vintage Honda world doesn't need a place to waste money on valves that break engines.
I got my response a few hours later, "Why don't you go f**k yourself?"
Very businesslike and responsible answer, not exactly what I expected to hear. I was ready for some form of disbelief or theory of misunderstanding, not such a brief, rude comment back. I checked with the Honda305 guys and they all scolded me for not searching Apex Cycle on the forum-- there was a PLETHORA of bad experiences with their service, peppered with a few people mildly pleased with the fact that their part got there on time.
I just spoke with Charley from Charley's Place in San Francisco (famous around here) who has my motor taken apart right now. He said he has never seen a valve bend and break in the fashion that this one has. This time it was crooked at such a bizarre angle that it has damaged the guide and the boss in the head that holds it. Now my vintage, original, early-style 305 head needs re-welding to be repaired. Two sets of pistons, two sets of poor valves, one set of valve springs, two sets of guides, and now a head casting down the toilet... Apex Cycle is still in business. PLEASE do not support them. I'd love to put these guys out of business and make sure whoever runs that place never earns a penny off someone else again. Fast food establishments and janitorial jobs exist for assholes like this.
Spread the word!!!
