charging system help, problem ive been working on with progress but no cigar

[teazer]

That sounds Almost right.

On a stock system you have two devices to connect. The replacement CB400T box with one complex circuit, so the connections out are not supposed to be the same as the CB500T. They really are two different sets of connections AFAIK. One is to the alternator (AC) and the other is to the loom (DC).

I am making the massive assumption that the R/R unit is from a late model CB400 or CB450 and not from a DOHC black bomber type CB450.

Stator (alternator) to rectifier sounds fine. On the other plug, where is that yellow - on the regulator or on the wiring loom?

On the CB500T the regulator has Yellow red and green and the 400Hawk has Red, green, and black.

So the new R/R needs to connect to Red, Green and the third lead should be black as 12v switched power. If that is correct, then the Black from the regulator needs to connect to a new pin carrying 12v switched. PJ is way more expert than I on this stuff. I only have the wring diagrams to check and not the actual parts and taht makes it slightly more difficult,

 

[hurley209]

It is a late model solid state reg/rect unit from an 82 cb450.
The unit has 3 yellow wires for the rectifier
And a black, red and green wire on the regulator side.

I connected the 3 wires from the stator into the 3 yellow wires from the rectifier side of the unit.

For regulator the bike has a black, green and yellow (which I believ is red on other models) wires in to which the stock regulator connects to.
So I connected the new units wires to the bikes wires.
Green on reg to green on bike
Black on reg to yellow on bike
And not running the red on the reg or the black on the bike, it seems it charged good at that combination.

 

[teazer]

That's what I had surmised. So far so good. I went back to P5 to check what PJ said and so far we're following his good ideas.

Black on Reg should go to black on the bike

Red on Reg goes to red on bike

Green on Reg to green on bike.

As it's wired now I think that the regulator is getting AC on the line that should be DC so maybe it's allowing only part of the wave through, but I suspect you will burn it out that way. Red not connected means that the regulator doesn't "see" battery voltage, so it's probably trying to overcharge the system when it should be limiting it to 13,5v max (or whatever the design calls for).

That appears to be what PJ was saying on P4 and 5 and that's how the late model 400 is wired.

 

[hurley209]

Hmmm when I tried that combo first, it wasn't even charging over like 12.3v at the battery and wouldn't climb with revs, and when I switched it over like kmoto did on his bike it started charging fine. Thats the weird part to me, and it didn't seem to over charge.
But i totally get what you are saying though, just all kinda confusing at the same time lol. Please keep chiming in though, you guys are awesomely helpful and I appreciate it! Thank you!

 

[kMoto]

I'm almost positive that the Yellow wire from your harness (originally connected to Yellow on stock Reg), runs back to the alternator Yellow. It also runs through your headlight switch to connect with the White alt. lead. When it's unmodified, that is. With the stock harness disconnected though, and the alt. plug running into the new R/R, it probably isn't connected to anything. So, you're basically just plugging the Black off of the new R/R into nothing? Someone double check me on that?

I was wondering if I have mine hooked up in the best possible way, b/c I'm getting 13v MAX and an average of 12.8v. Which I guess is good enough.

 

[kMoto]

For Ref. CB500t

 

[kMoto]

hurley, I know one thing you should do for sure is connect the red from the new R/R to the red (in the harness) that went to your stock rect. That goes to your batt.

 

[teazer]

Ask PJ to be sure about the wiring connections, but I checked his earlier posts and I think what I came up with is the same as he said to do. That was back on P4 or 5 IIRC.

Thinking about it for a moment, something doesn't make sense. If the red from the R/R is not connected how is the battery getting any charge at all?

Red is the "output" lead that charges the battery. If it isn't connected, then the system must be pushing AC from the yellow lead into teh black switched 12v lead.

Time to stop for a coffee break and think about this. With the bike not running and everything turned off, what voltage are you seeing at that yellow lead with the R/R disconected? Turn the ignition on and repeat. Now fire the bike up and run it at idle and use the AC and DC scale and see what voltage is on that yellow lead.

I suspect that it's AC on that lead UNLESS it is connected differently than the wiring diagram. Try stripping the outer cover off that part of teh loom and follow that yellow lead upstream and see where it goes.

 

[hurley209]

Kmoto: that diagram is colored differently from my bike. My regulator connections on the bikes harness are black green and yellow. And on the reg/rect unit, black red and green. I've connected black to yellow and green to green.

I'm confused now lol
I wish you guys were here in person.

Just curious though, if my stator is connected directly into my rectifier, bypassing the stock rectifier set up, would what comes out of the regulator be dc voltage? Because the wiring diagram shows it as power would travel with all of the stock connections looping around, but I went directly into my rectifier from the stator instead of the stator going into the harness.
Now this may not matter At all but I figured I'd mention it.
And yes we def need coffee now lol

 

[hurley209]

And also, Il try the tests suggested but wouldn't there be no power at the regulator with the bike off?
I thought power ran through it only after running through the rectifier and being converted to dc voltage??

 

[crazypj]

OK
It looks like yellow wire won't get AC as the yellow direct from alternator is connected to rectifier. (don't know where is is getting power from it should just be 'spare not connected to anything)
Maybe it's connected into points wire somewhere? (that could explain low rpm miss?)
I think the black you used isn't live with switch on, did you check it has battery voltage?
Charging sonds about right, it should be reading around 14.25v @5,000rpm
Black on reg/rect shouldn't be live with ign off or on 'park'

 

[hurley209]

OK
It looks like yellow wire won't get AC as the yellow direct from alternator is connected to rectifier. (don't know where is is getting power from it should just be 'spare not connected to anything)
Maybe it's connected into points wire somewhere? (that could explain low rpm miss?)
I think the black you used isn't live with switch on, did you check it has battery voltage?
Charging sonds about right, it should be reading around 14.25v @5,000rpm
Black on reg/rect shouldn't be live with ign off or on 'park'

no low rpm miss that i noticed.

i did not check if the wire has voltage, just checked the battery charging voltage.

hmmmmm .... need more coffee. lol

 

[teazer]

PJ I agree, but I don't know what wires were cut or rearranged. I have a suspicion that the regulator yellow may still be connected to something. If not, that's great. But the DC leads are not connected correctly.

Agree that Black should have power when the ignition is on, but zero when in OFF or PARK. But I don't know where that lead now comes from/goes to in that harness. Depends on what was cut and what was left.

This must be why I always wire from scratch and follow each circuit through. If I use an old loom I strip it first so that if I remove say the pink to switch connection, I can strip it all out and save any confusion.

 

[kMoto]

I'm going to try to overview this. lol. I know your probably spinning from all this crap.

First of all, I'm going to try to explain this as if there are no connectors involved. Just wire to wire.

You are all set with the alternator to rectifier connections. You have the P/Y/W hooked to the Y/Y/Y. That's how it should be.

Now, you may need to clip the connector off of the regulator side of the R/R unit and splice wires.

I know that your stock regulator is B/Y/G. That is how the 360 is set up. Those colors stand for BK (your 12v after the ignition switch is "on"), Y (connects to the stock rect and alt.), and G ( just goes to the nearest ground). This is your stock set-up.

Regulator side of the new R/R: BK, R, G

BK- Somehow connect this to the BK in your harness (the same wire that your stock reg plugged into). You may have to extend the wire from the R/R. You can clip/strip the harness BK and the R/R BK, then wire nut them together (only for testing purposes, make a solid connection later).

R- This needs to go to the battery in whichever way possible. Method #1: There is a big red covered wire that came from the bike harness into your stock rectifier connector. Clip this wire from the connector and wire nut it to the R from the new R/R unit.
Method #2: Add a length of 16gauge or larger wire to the R on the new R/R, and run it DIRECTLY to the battery and connect it to the (+).
Method #3: Do the same as Method #2, but connect the wire to the starter solenoid/relay where the other BIG red wires connect.

G- Is the ground. Method #1: Add a length of wire to the G on the new R/R, then find a G in your bike harness, clip it, and wire nut it to the G on the R/R. Method #2: Add a length of wire to the G on the new R/R, then add an Eye connector to the end of it and put it under a bolt that bolts to your frame (creating a good ground). You can always check for a good ground by using the continuity function on your mulit-meter. Put one lead on the (-) of the batt. and the other wherever you want to put your ground. Should have 0 resistance.

That should be all you have to do. If you can make some of those connections through your bike harness connectors, then great, but don't be afraid to clip wires and just connect them. You can wire nut them for testing purposes, then when you get it figured out, go back and crimp on connectors. I get the bullet style connectors you find at any autoparts. I choose to remove the plastic shields they come with, so that I can crimp, then solder them. I cover them in heat shrink after that, so that they are isolated.

 

[kMoto]

CrazyPJ, doing some tests on mine, I noticed that my batt. voltage drops when I switch 12v to the BK (R/R), before I actually start the bike. Is this voltage being used to excite the alt. coils before I start up? Is it normal?

When I start the bike the voltage holds at ~12.8v @ idle and max's out at a little over 13v if I hold it @ ~3,000rpm.

 

[hurley209]

whoa... lol. thats a whole lot to figure out.
what would happen if i left it as is?
should i draw a small diagram of what i did???

 

[teazer]

Should I draw a small diagram of what I did???


That would be very helpful. We know what we think you should have done, but have zero visibility into what you actually did.

KMoto is essentially correct, but no need to cut the connector off the new R/R. Just remove the pins from the loom side of the old connector and insert new ones. If it's ratty, replace it with one from Vintage Connections or Oregon Motorcycle parts

BTW, Red is Not from the regulator, it's actually from the rectifier

 

[hurley209]

here is a quick sketch up of what i did.
i will also post an actual wiring diagram for comparison.

 

[hurley209]

here is the closest i could find to my wire colors. it is a cb450 diagram, which should be almost the same as my cb500t.

im running an electronic ignition, dyna coils, and newtronic ign box if any of that matters. and bike has no off switch for the headlight.

 

[teazer]

That is wrong, but the real issue is where are those Yellow and black leads coming from and when do they have power to them.