Electronic Ignition - might be useful to some people.

el barto

Been Around the Block
I've been weighing up whether to go with Pamco or Charlie's Place, a big decider obviously being the Pamco price and the fact that it features electronic advance. ANYWAY, I emailed Charlie to find out why he doesn't feature an electronic advance; below is his response. I figured it might be helpful to others who are weighing up their options. It kind of correlates to something else I read on the subject here about the fact that if the electronic advance fails, the whole system fails.

Years ago when I first started working exclusively on Vintage Hondas (before they were actually Vintage) there was essentially one reliable aftermarket electronic ignition on the market and that was Dynatek. They had two offerings for four cylinder models only. The Dyna S, and the Dyna III. The S used the mechanical advancer, the III had a black box and electronic advance. This was all back in the early 90's. The products had been around since the 80's. My experience using both was that Dyna III's had a tendency to malfunction and burn out in a relatively short period of time. I did not have this problem with the Dyna S. But far more significantly the acceleration, which is the supposed primary advantage of the electronic advance, was not as smooth with the Dyna III as it was with the Dyna S on the older carbureted bikes. Flash forward many years and none of that has changed.
There is a reason most people in amateur vintage racing never use electronic advance ignitions. Under duress you do not want an ignition that might fail for any number of reasons, and you want acceleration that works with the flow of the carbs not against them.
In short I use the mechanical advancer because I get reliably awesome improvement in performance with no mysteries after installation. It also allows me to make the cleanest, most durable, and most reliable electronic ignition on the market.


Food for thought if nothing else!
 
when he says what works with the flow of the carbs that is just a line of pure horseshit it doesn't even make any sense if you understand how a mechanical advance works
 
If I had to guess, I think the point "Charlie" was trying to make was that if the electronic advance fails, it will naturally cause the bike to either not run at all or likely run like crap. Nothing to do with the flow of fuel/air, but if the timing is out of whack, then it's certainly not going to run properly.

But yeah, the flow of fuel and air has nada to do with the timing.

I have electronic advance ignition on my BMW (Boyer unit out of the UK - they're known for their electronics afterall) and it has been running perfectly for years and thousands of miles. My XS has a Pamco ignition (rephased to 277 degrees) and uses the mechanical advance, and runs perfectly too.

Nothing wrong with a mechanical advance that is maintained, and yeah, it can be repaired at the side of the road (providing you have springs) where a black box advance dies when it dies and you're stuck.

What bike? Pete (Pamco) makes an electronic advance, but I think only for the XS. I have one of the first ones in a box around here somewhere for a project bike just to see how it works.
 
I've got a Pamco CB360 unit on the way already, but I think Charlie's response adds to the debate, at least the part about not wanting to completely rely on a black box.
 
yes definately a valid point about reliability a black box can fail but so can a centrifugal advancer
before my pamco failed and left me stranded far from home
the centrifugal advancer that i had been regularly making sure was clean and lightly lubed,well that dang thing shredded itself and left me stranded as well.
now i actually cary a spare advancer and complete points plate with points
for longer rides be prepared is my advice
 
Yeah I read in another topic your experience with Pamco. Sounds like a shit situation to be in. What did you do when you got stranded like that?

Definitely going to be packing a spare set of points for longer trips...
 
el barto said:
Yeah I read in another topic your experience with Pamco. Sounds like a shit situation to be in. What did you do when you got stranded like that?

Definitely going to be packing a spare set of points for longer trips...
i haven't got anything against pamco the ignition worked extremely well and in fact now that i think about it the advancer failing in pieces might have damaged the circuit bored very slightly,making the unit fail later down the road
i was just a little disapointed that i sent the unit in,had asked for a repair and said i would pay and he stopped communicating , thats all
one time i had cell service made a call
the other not and i stashed the bike in the bushes and hitched a ride thats one advantage of rural forest areas plenty of stash spots
 
One thing the PAMCO e-advance does is retard the timing below 500 RPM (At startup) to make the start easier. Once up to idle speed, the timing is normal. The mechanical advancer doesn't do that.

I could carry a point set with me if I was worried, but I will say this. Back in the 70's when I was riding my 360 back and forth to school daily, the points never stranded me, but they were awfully fiddly. Maybe my point cam was a little rough, but I could never keep the timing spot on. Same bike today....I haven't touched the ignition in 2 years....timing is still spot on. Bike starts immediately. I really like my PAMCO e-advance.

As far as PAMCO Pete goes, he is a little difficult to communicate with at times. I was working with him and helped him test the CB360 ignition, and I often couldn't reach him. He is not a 21st century communicator....However, he is an honorable guy, and when you do reach him, he does the right thing.

Anything mechanical or electronic can and will fail, but I believe his system, if installed carefully (route wires well, support them, no stress) the system is as good as any system.
 
Mydlyfkryzis said:
One thing the PAMCO e-advance does is retard the timing below 500 RPM (At startup) to make the start easier. Once up to idle speed, the timing is normal. The mechanical advancer doesn't do that.

I could carry a point set with me if I was worried, but I will say this. Back in the 70's when I was riding my 360 back and forth to school daily, the points never stranded me, but they were awfully fiddly. Maybe my point cam was a little rough, but I could never keep the timing spot on. Same bike today....I haven't touched the ignition in 2 years....timing is still spot on. Bike starts immediately. I really like my PAMCO e-advance.

As far as PAMCO Pete goes, he is a little difficult to communicate with at times. I was working with him and helped him test the CB360 ignition, and I often couldn't reach him. He is not a 21st century communicator....However, he is an honorable guy, and when you do reach him, he does the right thing.

Anything mechanical or electronic can and will fail, but I believe his system, if installed carefully (route wires well, support them, no stress) the system is as good as any system.
a person could get carried away packing spares thats for sure and i am pretty sure murphy has a say in the whole deal,like "carrying spares is only the gaurantee of having an unrelated breakdown" law
 
xb33bsa said:
a person could get carried away packing spares thats for sure and i am pretty sure murphy has a say in the whole deal,like "carrying spares is only the gaurantee of having an unrelated breakdown" law

I have to agree with you on that. The best spare to carry is Master Card or Visa....Some cash is good too.....I have AMA with towing, so if it is a good distance, I'll use my benefits....

I am too old to rebuild my bike on the side of the road nowadays.....Pre-cellphone days it was necessary to have tolls and spares....but nowadays, help is a dial tone away....
 
Mydlyfkryzis said:
I have to agree with you on that. The best spare to carry is Master Card or Visa....Some cash is good too.....I have AMA with towing, so if it is a good distance, I'll use my benefits....

I am too old to rebuild my bike on the side of the road nowadays.....Pre-cellphone days it was necessary to have tolls and spares....but nowadays, help is a dial tone away....

Wuts a dial tone?
 
Mydlyfkryzis said:
One thing the PAMCO e-advance does is retard the timing below 500 RPM (At startup) to make the start easier. Once up to idle speed, the timing is normal. The mechanical advancer doesn't do that.

I could carry a point set with me if I was worried, but I will say this. Back in the 70's when I was riding my 360 back and forth to school daily, the points never stranded me, but they were awfully fiddly. Maybe my point cam was a little rough, but I could never keep the timing spot on. Same bike today....I haven't touched the ignition in 2 years....timing is still spot on. Bike starts immediately. I really like my PAMCO e-advance.

As far as PAMCO Pete goes, he is a little difficult to communicate with at times. I was working with him and helped him test the CB360 ignition, and I often couldn't reach him. He is not a 21st century communicator....However, he is an honorable guy, and when you do reach him, he does the right thing.

Anything mechanical or electronic can and will fail, but I believe his system, if installed carefully (route wires well, support them, no stress) the system is as good as any system.

I contacted him a little while ago and got an email back the next day. Seems like a nice dude.

Where did you mount the black box? I want to put it somewhere it'll get the least amount of vibration/stress.
 
I have a Charlie's Place ignition and he has been incredibly helpful. I also bought a PAMCO unit e-advancer unit for a CB360 to try. Will compare them both.
 
redwillissuperman said:
I have a Charlie's Place ignition and he has been incredibly helpful. I also bought a PAMCO unit e-advancer unit for a CB360 to try. Will compare them both.

Looking forward to hearing how you get on
 
el barto said:
I contacted him a little while ago and got an email back the next day. Seems like a nice dude.

Where did you mount the black box? I want to put it somewhere it'll get the least amount of vibration/stress.

Double stick tape under the battery box.....Close to the points box, gets air flow, protected from direct weather.
 

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