Father Son 75 CB200T Rise From the Ruins

[barnett468]

barnett468, thks for the response on the Cerakote...

Did you miss the post I made #2651 above... perhaps your not understanding the interface between the oil pump & filter housing that's applicable to Patricks (TexasStar's) engine - CB200 and applies to other Honda tiddler engines for that matter. And there in lies crazypj's reasoning (and he is correct).

no prob Q, you're welcome.

I actually did not see your other post or this one, so I will check out your other one shortly and thanks for the info.

 

[barnett468]

Cam boss failure for these Honda tiddler engine (beyond what has been previously mentioned) can be caused by the novice leaving the fuel selector valve ON after shut down.. allowing fuel to seep by these horrid designed float shutoff valves, sliding by the piston rings diluting the oil... not a good mixture for lubrication.

Yes, thanks for the info but I was aware of damage that can be caused by that and have been turning the fuel valves off on my bikes since around 1968.

 

[DohcBikes]

you cant compare any engine with a plain bearing crankshaft(automotive) to that of one with roller bearings (vintage jap)as to oil pressure needs , its apples to oranges
merry new year

1St of all yes you can when simply using examples to illustrate thermal dynamics and the effects of oil pressure in the event of failure.

2Nd not all vintage Japanese bike cranks are roller bearing.

3Rd why disregard a mountain of factual info to argue a single point in a discussion that you THINK is irrelevant.

The bulk of the post was about knowing the correct way to test individual mods for effectiveness and not just claiming a mod works with no real data to support that claim.

 

[irk miller]

you cant compare any engine with a plain bearing crankshaft(automotive) to that of one with roller bearings (vintage jap)as to oil pressure needs , its apples to oranges
merry new year

Motorcycles use plain bearing camshafts. Wouldn't that make the convo relevant?

 

[xb33bsa]

Motorcycles use plain bearing camshafts. Wouldn't that make the convo relevant?

for the most part they aren't as critically needy as a plain crank

 

[Sonreir]

Thread cleaned. Please keep it civil.

There is no need for personal attacks.

 

[Sonreir]

Purely anecdotal, but I've cooked the top end on a 360 due to oil starvation. I was running 20w-50 at the time and I was also a quart low.

Right side was fine, left was not.

 

[barnett468]

Thread cleaned. Please keep it civil.

There is no need for personal attacks.

Dang it, I must have missed it.

Hope your Holidays are happy, NEW YEARS IS NEXT.

 

[Texasstar]

Purely anecdotal, but I've cooked the top end on a 360 due to oil starvation. I was running 20w-50 at the time and I was also a quart low.

Right side was fine, left was not.

very nice! cafematty calls the 360 a time bomb lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sonreir]

Dang it, I must have missed it.

Hope your Holidays are happy, NEW YEARS IS NEXT.

Ask Damon, he can fill you in.

Hope you guys had a good holiday, too.

 

[barnett468]

Purely anecdotal, but I've cooked the top end on a 360 due to oil starvation. I was running 20w-50 at the time and I was also a quart low.

Right side was fine, left was not.

Ok, here's an interesting point . . Exactly what oil were you using?

If I understand it correctly, the current topic is generally about the cam bearings going bad on a 360 yet from what I can see, ALL your cam bearings are mint or close to it but the cam and lifters failed instead.

This doesn't mean they they would not have failed soon after the cam did if it kept running long enough, it just raises some interesting questions but i can tell you that i have seen this same thing on motorcycles AND automobile engines several times before.


My initial guess is that because your oil was 30% or more low, it simply got so hot that it was incapable of protecting those parts and had it been the same viscosity but a higher quality, that might not have occurred.

This is not to suggest that some other type of mod would not have prevented it also though.

 

[Sonreir]

Ok, here's an interesting point . . Exactly what oil were you using?

If I understand it correctly, the current topic is generally about the cam bearings going bad on a 360 yet from what I can see, ALL your cam bearings are mint or close to it but the cam and lifters failed instead.

This doesn't mean they they would not have failed soon after the cam did if it kept running long enough, it just raises some interesting questions but i can tell you that i have seen this same thing on motorcycles AND automobile engines several times before.


My initial guess is that because your oil was 30% or more low, it simply got so hot that it was incapable of protecting those parts and had it been the same viscosity but a higher quality, that might not have occurred.

This is not to suggest that some other type of mod would not have prevented it also though.

This was several years ago, so I don't remember the exact brand, but I'd be willing to be it was whatever was on sale at Napa at the time. Probably their own brand.

The bearings on the rocker cover were fine, but there was visible wear on the head (I don't have a pic of that one).

I suspect that keeping the oil up to the proper level would have done more to prevent my issue than any of the other recommended modifications. I was by no means beating the engine to death and prior to this problem I completed a 60 mile trip and 70mph with no problems. Tach was reading a consistent 7,000 RPM the whole way.

 

[barnett468]

This was several years ago, so I don't remember the exact brand, but I'd be willing to be it was whatever was on sale at Napa at the time. Probably their own brand.

The bearings on the rocker cover were fine, but there was visible wear on the head (I don't have a pic of that one).

I suspect that keeping the oil up to the proper level would have done more to prevent my issue than any of the other recommended modifications. I was by no means beating the engine to death and prior to this problem I completed a 60 mile trip and 70mph with no problems. Tach was reading a consistent 7,000 RPM the whole way.

ok, maybe you will find the following intersting if you weren't already aware of it.

API service classification SH motor oils were the last gasoline motor oils without minimum phosphorus level regulation . . Phosphorus/Zinc levels in these old oils ranged from 1400 to 1600 ppm and provided good anti-wear protection . . In 1997, the API first regulated Phosphorus levels in gasoline engine oils to a maximum 1000 ppm for API service classification SJ.

The most current API service classification for gasoline oil is SM, and was implemented in 2004. The API requires a minimum phosphorus level for SM motor oils of 600 ppm and a maximum of 800 ppm. These lower phosphorus levels mean lower zinc levels also which greatly reduces an oils anti wear properties.

Depending on when you bought your oil, f it did not specifically say "High ZDDP Levels" or something to that effect, it most likely had less than was needed to protect your cam.

I always tell people that no matter how many oil mods they do to their engine, they are not a substitute for high quality oil.

 

[Tune-A-Fish]

Friction > Oil > Less Friction Iz this an oil thread I started reading about 360's

 

[barnett468]

you cant compare any engine with a plain bearing crankshaft(automotive) to that of one with roller bearings (vintage jap)as to oil pressure needs , its apples to oranges
merry new year

The topic was focused on the cam bearing journals and not only did many of the the vintage "jap" cranks NOT have ball bearings as has been previously mentioned . . The ones that did still had non ball bearing camshafts, therefore, it would appear that the particular area in question is similar between both ball bearing and non ball bearing cranks.

1969 thru 1978 750 Honda vintage "jap" crank.

1969 thru 1978 750 Honda vintage "jap" head with no ball bearings.

 

[xb33bsa]

agreed
but most the vast majority were roller cranks sohc 4 cylinder hondas and what yamaha mulitis? were some of the only plain cranks ,very few other plain cranks in the early era
you had mentioned 10 psi per 1000 rpm and i was eluding to that which is a plain crank rule of thumb
i wasn't trying totake away anything from the rest of the extremely correct info you have provided
the plain cams dont require anywhere near the constant higher pressures of a plain crank

 

[xb33bsa]

brings an interesting question on the cam failures
does the journal fail after the followeres or vise versa or is there even a set pattern to the failure ?

 

[barnett468]

brings an interesting question on the cam failures
does the journal fail after the followeres or vise versa or is there even a set pattern to the failure ?

i have seen it happen both ways, and you can see examples of it on the internet, and it can vary from model to model, therefore, in my experience, there is no set sequence for the failures on a motorcycle, however, on an automotive engine, they are far more frequent on the cam and lifters.

There is however a greater ability for a protective oil wedge to form between a cam and a journal than there is for one to form between the cam lobe and the rocker.

If you look at new flat tappet automotive cams, you will see a thin black coating which is called 'parkerization" and this is on there to hold oil until the lifter and cam interface can break in.

"Oil retention" is also one of the characteristics of the Tungsten coating I previously mentioned.

 

[xb33bsa]

i have seen it happen both ways, and you can see examples of it on the internet, and it can vary from model to model, therefore, in my experience, there is no set sequence for the failures on a motorcycle, however, on an automotive engine, they are far more frequent on the cam and lifters.

There is however a greater ability for a protective oil wedge to form between a cam and a journal than there is for one to form between the cam lobe and the rocker.

If you look at new flat tappet automotive cams, you will see a thin black coating which is called 'parkerization" and this is on there to hold oil until the lifter and cam interface can break in.

"Oil retention" is also one of the characteristics of the Tungsten coating I previously mentioned.

i have a nos cam going in my next 350 honda twin it is parkerd flat black lookin 8)

 

[Sonreir]

brings an interesting question on the cam failures
does the journal fail after the followeres or vise versa or is there even a set pattern to the failure ?

Much more damage on my followers than my cam or journals.