"Good design is well thought out plagiarism"
- Thread starter 66replica
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joeyputt
The green flag sets me free
When it comes to the motorcycle world as hard as we all try to set ourselves apart with new designs there really is not too much that has not been done at one point in time. Most any forum that you visit will have some sort of inspiration thread.
I know most of us have a certain look that we are going for on our bike and more often than not we like it because we have seen it before somewhere. You might want to run a certain tank that you have seen and loved or a certain set of shocks you saw on another bike.
As much as we strive to be individuals and free thinkers most of our machines will end up having at least a few certain parts that we have seen before.
Even the manufacturers do it, if one machine gets a trick new design that is succesful the others are soon to follow with similar designs.
Whether we actually mean to do it or not I would agree that sometimes good design is well thought out plagiarism.
I know most of us have a certain look that we are going for on our bike and more often than not we like it because we have seen it before somewhere. You might want to run a certain tank that you have seen and loved or a certain set of shocks you saw on another bike.
As much as we strive to be individuals and free thinkers most of our machines will end up having at least a few certain parts that we have seen before.
Even the manufacturers do it, if one machine gets a trick new design that is succesful the others are soon to follow with similar designs.
Whether we actually mean to do it or not I would agree that sometimes good design is well thought out plagiarism.
Is this the new philosophy forum or something? LOL
Define Plagiarism.
And then define how "well thought out" fits. I 'm not sure it does.
If you mean taking someone else's design and passing it off as your own. That's plagiarism.
If you mean taking an idea or design element and making it your own. That's what I like to call "Creative adaptation".
I like to study other bikes and take some of the design elements to make them work on my project.
Copying a classic Manx or Triton look is not plagiarism, it's copying but you are not claiming that you created the IP.
One might argue that we should site all the designs we were inspired by but that gets out of hand really fast.
So in the main, building custom bikes or specials as we used to call them is not plagiarism.
Define Plagiarism.
And then define how "well thought out" fits. I 'm not sure it does.
If you mean taking someone else's design and passing it off as your own. That's plagiarism.
If you mean taking an idea or design element and making it your own. That's what I like to call "Creative adaptation".
I like to study other bikes and take some of the design elements to make them work on my project.
Copying a classic Manx or Triton look is not plagiarism, it's copying but you are not claiming that you created the IP.
One might argue that we should site all the designs we were inspired by but that gets out of hand really fast.
So in the main, building custom bikes or specials as we used to call them is not plagiarism.
If its motorcycle related most designs are "creative adaptation". Go trace motorcycle history and engine design back to the turn of the last century. You will find that multi cylindered engines, four valve heads, DOHC etc. were all known to designers. The problem was, materials available and development costs. ABC had rear swing arm suspension in 1920, USD forks way before WW2, Same thing for monoshock suspension.
We can push the basic shape around and call it new but somewhere in the past you'll see someone had thought of it already. In fact i wish the Japs would push their designs around a bit more. They are all identical.
We can push the basic shape around and call it new but somewhere in the past you'll see someone had thought of it already. In fact i wish the Japs would push their designs around a bit more. They are all identical.
scm said:
Please, provide an example of a recent idea or technical innovation that is in no way based on any preceding thought, theory, or practice.
Is this your example? A conjecture about coloring maps that dates back to the 1850's? Not exactly new. Even a "new" proof only serves the original idea and is likely based on other existing mathematics.
Slams77
New Member
If you mean taking an idea or design element and making it your own. That's what I like to call "Creative adaptation".
I couldn’t agree more. I have ridden motorcycles for quite some time now, but being that I am new to fabricating parts on my own motorcycle; I am constantly looking at other bikes for inspiration and ideas, then adding my own thought and design to produce the final outcome. Fork ears for example will serve the same basic purpose (mounting a headlight) regardless of the bike, but designing them around a custom build is where they can take on a completely different shape and function. I feel that a tried and true foundation always brings out individual creativity, which in turn offers endless blueprints for others to utilize.
I couldn’t agree more. I have ridden motorcycles for quite some time now, but being that I am new to fabricating parts on my own motorcycle; I am constantly looking at other bikes for inspiration and ideas, then adding my own thought and design to produce the final outcome. Fork ears for example will serve the same basic purpose (mounting a headlight) regardless of the bike, but designing them around a custom build is where they can take on a completely different shape and function. I feel that a tried and true foundation always brings out individual creativity, which in turn offers endless blueprints for others to utilize.
boingk
Standard gearhead.
Plagiarism is defined as knowingly promoting the work of others as your own. Generally we do not do this, and while ideas may be reused or built upon, most modern works are truly innovative. Here are a few examples from various fields:
Micro-identification dots (as used by Yamaha)
High capacity air freight (Boeing? Airbus?)
Sattelite guided missles
Personal locating and/or signalling devices
True variable valve technology for motorcycles (as opposed to F1 cars)
'Big Bang' cranks (on roadbikes, not Doohan's NSR500)
I could go on and on with this, but there is little point. Ideas and designs may be improved upon or regenerated, but this is far from plagiarism, and good design is much more than 'well though out plagiarism'.
Good design is innovative and adept at performing the task for which it was meant. It is also often robust, reliable, simplified, aesthetically pleasing, and cost effective. I value all these things and this, for me, is what good design is.
- boingk
Micro-identification dots (as used by Yamaha)
High capacity air freight (Boeing? Airbus?)
Sattelite guided missles
Personal locating and/or signalling devices
True variable valve technology for motorcycles (as opposed to F1 cars)
'Big Bang' cranks (on roadbikes, not Doohan's NSR500)
I could go on and on with this, but there is little point. Ideas and designs may be improved upon or regenerated, but this is far from plagiarism, and good design is much more than 'well though out plagiarism'.
Good design is innovative and adept at performing the task for which it was meant. It is also often robust, reliable, simplified, aesthetically pleasing, and cost effective. I value all these things and this, for me, is what good design is.
- boingk
scm said:
Touchscreens did not appear first on phones, they were brought to phones after being in use for quite some time on other machines. Taken a step further, the touchscreen is merely an evolution of the user interface and really is just another kind of button or switch. Before touchscreens we used buttons, switches, levers, etc to activate machine functions going back hundreds of years. Roman catapults were fired by pulling a lever or tugging a rope, today I fired a virtual catapult in a game on my touchscreen iphone. I might have used a technology that Romans didn't have, but that doesn't make it a new idea.
Another example would be the airplane. Powered human flight didn't become a reality until the 20th century, but forward thinkers like Da Vinci made drawings of flying machines hundreds of years before. Da Vinci's machines might not have been successful, but the idea is at least as old as he and possibly even older. The Wright brothers were successful in building a powered aircraft, but they didn't originate the idea. Jet aircraft came into being in the 1940's, but the principal of jet propulsion was demonstrated as early as 400 B.C..
I'll admit that saying there are "no" new ideas is pretty broad statement. There might be a few, but I'd wager that a truly original thought is very rare. There is a difference between having an idea and the ability to turn that idea into reality. We still have many ideas and concepts that we've yet to prove but the ideas themselves do exist.
Certainly with regard to motorcycle design...it's all been done before.
scm
Been Around the Block
Hi!
I see what you mean and can partly agree on what you say (esp. that "a truly original thought is very rare"),
but I think you shouldn't just focus on the purpose, in this case some kind of trigger, but also on how much
engineering genius and also fundamental research was neccessary to create the underlying technology.
On the other hand, yes of course, nearly everything around us is some further development of whatever
predecessor, but that doesn't prove there's no new idea in it...
Best regards
Sven
I see what you mean and can partly agree on what you say (esp. that "a truly original thought is very rare"),
but I think you shouldn't just focus on the purpose, in this case some kind of trigger, but also on how much
engineering genius and also fundamental research was neccessary to create the underlying technology.
On the other hand, yes of course, nearly everything around us is some further development of whatever
predecessor, but that doesn't prove there's no new idea in it...
Best regards
Sven
pawn
Over 1,000 Posts
as a professional designer, I'm not ashamed to say that original thought is pretty much non-existent...or at least it seems that way to me. Every day of my work week is spend expanding on past ideas, improving past mistakes, and utilizing past successes. I don't think it is bad that there is no true origin to design...as far back as history goes design principals have been in practice by cultures separately yet simultaneously. Pyramids are a great example of shared design language without interaction.
Midcoastcustoms
"Live life like the captain of a sinking ship"
Wow this thread got deep real quick. Unless you believe you can make a rounder wheel don't try and reinvent it. We design and build things to solve problems, which are often complex in nature. The best solutions are usually simple though. It is intelligent to look at past solutions to similar problems and directly copy or improve on them. Why start from scratch when u can start where someone else left off?
CresentSon
Over 1,000 Posts
"True originality lies in the obscurity of one's refrences."
-Unknown
-Unknown
