Kickstart-only Battery Delete capacitor vs tiny Ballistic/Shorai Li-Iron battery

[Chuck78]

I've been hung up on kickstart engines quite a lot since I got into motorcycles, for many reasons - the rider to machine connection, ability to kick it when battery is dead, the novel antiquity/nostalgia, and potential weight savings which really make it alluring. I dropped my very stout and tough '77 Suzuki GS750 from 552 lbs wet weight now to 500lbs, & more weight savings would nicely offset the hefty crankcase contents of these overbuilt engines. 16-17 lbs weight savings deleting the battery, starter, and starter gears on my dieting large-cc corner carving machine would be excellent!

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/BEC.html Oregon Motorcycle Parts says that anything less than a 22,000uf capacitor is no good for trying to smooth out the gaps in the stator pulses on startup & idle on a smaller or 2 cylinder engine., & are working on a 40-60,000uF cap kit for 4 cylinder bikes.

I see very large 22,000uf and larger caps in the 35 to 70 volt current handling capability for $10-$40 on ebay, and toyed with the idea of maybe two of those in parallel in order to have two in case one blew, so for $30-$80 I could get a whole lot of electrical ignition assist in kickstarting, and keeping the lights from flickering at idle.

Downside I hear is that the caps (maybe just smaller ones?) are bad at soaking up high revving voltage surges from your charging system at it's peak output, and you may blow light bulbs much more often. The other downside to this is that if I run out of gas (or the bike breaks down) at night in the hills or in low lit areas where there may be traffic, I am totally without lights as soon as I pull in the clutch or the bike comes to a stop. I go camping with the bike, so lights with the battery off would be nice.

Ballistic, Shorai, and others have been making Lithium-Iron Phosphate batteries aka LiFePO4 (similar to Li-Ion) for motorcycles that cost quite a bit, are smaller, and weigh SUBSTANTIALLY LESS.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-battery/li-ion-motorcycle-battery/shorai-vs-ballistic-li-ion-motorcycle-battery.htm


How much power/amp-hours do I really need to adequately power the ignition and two indicator lamp bulbs when kickstarting?
I am looking at some tiny 4 cell Ballistic brand batteries, and wondering with no starter motor draw, how small can I go? A 50cc-scooter-spec 4 cell battery should do it, right? May be able to afford one of those, and have some quick headlight power still after the engine is off.

Ballistic 4 cell battery, this thing might be the ticket for a kickstart only, what do you guys think?:
http://www.righttoolusa.com/p/New-Ballistic-Performance-Lithium-Evo2-12v-4-Cell-Motorcycle-3314810.html?gclid=CMXuybTs3r4CFVQiMgodRlQAIg


CAPACITOR(S):
+slightly lighter, two 22,000uF's I'd guess to be around 1lb or less
+much cheaper (~$30-60)
+substantially smaller than lead acid battery
-may burn out light bulbs more frequently on higher rev's (inability to act as a large cushion for charging system spikes)
-no lights when engine off, no lights when bike dies from no gas or mechanical issues (danger in traffic)
-may not supply enough voltage to electronic ignitions to start, may have to downgrade to points.

SMALL LIGHTWEIGHT LI-IRON-PHOS BATTERY:
-substantially more cost, $80+
-slightly larger to much larger than capacitor(s)
-does not tolerate charging more than 14.4 volts, will fail
-does not tolerate running it dead below 9 volts, battery is shot if you discharge it less than 6 volts
+smaller to much smaller than lead acid battery
+lights still work when engine is not running (safer if bike dies, handy when parked in the dark)
+probably makes starts and idling better/smoother than caps
+better starting voltage than a capacitor (especially with a Dyna-S or electronic ignition)


Any users of very large capacitors on here to comment on the downfalls of them (reliability, ease of starting, light bulbs blowing, etc)? Also, just how small can I go on the battery and still have enough voltage spike cushion, as well as electrical capacity to easily start up my 4 cylinder Dyna-S ignition powered bike?????

 

[Chuck78]

Looks like I can score some high current handling 57,000 or 60,000uF caps for $20-ish each, a tiny Ballistic battery same size as the cap for $58 (2"x2"x3.25"), or a very slightly larger Ballistic battery (2.5"x2.5"x4.25" 2.3 amp/hours) for $87 shipped.

As far as power for the size and weight, the Antigravity Batteries' smallest offering is the best, but $108 best deal, $119 retail. Seems better for sure. Shorai didn't stack up for my needs.'
http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/antigravity-batteries-ag401/

 

[Sonreir]

Have you tested your idle voltage yet?

 

[Chuck78]

The bike won't start at all now with a totally dead battery & not enough kicker voltage to power the Dyna-S ignition (I guess kickstart bikes are where points ignitions excel, require less voltage), but the charging system was very healthy previously. My old r-r wouldnt charge any above 12.1 volts, and I believe I was around 13.2v at 1100 rpm's after the late model polaris rzr 800 regulator-rectifier, and 13.9-14.0 at mid rpm's. I never tested it at above 5500 or 7000 rpm's though.

Idle voltage doesnt matter as much in detetmining if a kick or two of the kickstarter pumped into the capacitor will be able to supply an even enough flow of 11-12 volts enough to power the dyna-s ignition... However, healthy idle voltage at 1000-1100rpm will probably translate to more stator&r-r output at the low engine cranking speed of a single kick on the kicker, therefore giving me enough instant voltage at the end of 1/4 turn on the kicker enough to start the bike. I could set my multimeter at max hold & test the output at kicking rpm's, maybe that would help me determine if I could realistically chacharge the cap enough in 1-2 kicks to power the dyna off of one or two 40,000uF caps.

My next build will be points/capacitor/kickstart-only for sure, as I am building one from all of my spare parts. Leaning towards the antigravity 4 cell but $ is an issue, and large ebay caps may be the ticket. I havent found a wholesale electronics place yet that has these values of caps for cheaper than ebay. $32 for 2 screw terminal 40,000uF caps is the winner so far.

Ballistic said the smallest $58 1 amp hour 4 cell battery was not enough for my 4 cyl bike, but I emailed back to make sure they read the part where I said I have no electric starter anymore. The next battery up is the $80-ish one. So probably the Antigravity 4 cell or caps are going to be the ticket unless the tiny 1 amp hour ballistic will actually do the trick.

 

[ProSimex]

Ok first of all what kind of alternator is in that puppy. If its an excited field alternator, you have no choice, you need a battery. If its a permanent magnet alternator then youre in luck. If by some brilliant foresight the good people at suzuki had the good sense to use the good old PMA rather then the fancy excited field then a decent little cap will be fine.

I should start selling these things for $20 a piece, cus that would allow me to buy a 6-pack and a cigar to enjoy while I sit around and contemplate what events in my life have turned me into such an asshole as to rip people off that badly.

Im running a HughsHandBuilt PMA in my XS650 now with a jammy little cap thats about the size of my thumb. Ive never blown a light with it, had a hard time starting it, and I think I paid about $2.50 for it. I am also running points mind you, could you convert to points on that bike?

I got it from http://www.active123.com/ at their location in Nepean Ontario. Now I realize that they dont have any locations in Ohio, but Im fairly confident there is an equivalent. They didnt have any in stock mind you, but I told em what I needed as far as Voltage and uFs (I think im running a 35v 25,000 uF one) and a few days later I had it and a spare for a fiver.

Those batteries also need a special charger no?

I hope this helps.

 

[Sonreir]

The GSes are permanent magnet, three phase. A cap will work, in theory, but you'll need to see if you're getting a decent charge at idle.

 

[ProSimex]

That would be helpful yes.

 

[Chuck78]

they do sell specific chargers for the lithium iron sulfate batteries, but a standard trickle charger will work as long as you do not overcharge them. This requires monitoring them time-wise and using the correct recommended setting from the manufacturer as far as amperage. if you have a nice lead acid battery charger that has the tune up mode, or de-sulfate mode as they are technically referred to as, you CANNOT use that feature, as that basically overcharges them, or maybe at charges them backwards at a higher voltage, whatever it is is not good for the lithium iron phosphate batteries at all, and will result in failure.

the other big plus to these batteries aside from the small size and lightweight is that they hold a charge much longer than a lead acid battery does, they will hold a charge all winter and fire right up in the springtime.the major downside besides the cost is that if your regulator fails and stops regulating properly, your battery it will fail rapidly, & may make go out with a big bang or popping sound.

 

[Chuck78]

http://www.alienmotion.com/am4.html

These appear to be made by the same outsourced Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturer as Ballistic's batteries. The case is the same, but this Alien Motion 2.2aH battery is about 1/4" smaller each dimension, weighs 1oz less, & is $7 cheaper than the 2.3aH Ballistic 100-010. I still think the 50cc scooter battery would probably do it, but maybe this one is a better bet. Both are more compact than the Antigravity battery, which is clearly the best & most regarded as far as durability.

I may see what the largest cap at radio shack is & try that if over 10,000uF, but I am still wondering about the 1aH battery's ability to power the Dyna-S. Otherwise, $80 or $108 is the battety investment that will give me lights after the engine is off, & easier starting. I'm still up in the air, & could go any of the three ways, but probably keeping the Dyna - have to research the dyna-s w/battery delete.

 

[Chuck78]

After researching Dyna-S & cap battery deletes, it seems as if the Dyna requires more voltage at startup, and caps in place of a battery are not a good idea. Some early factory electronic ignitions, and Lou's aka LoudGPZ/LoudHVX custom GM HEI ignitor curcuit require more electric than points to start, but far less than a Dyna, and will be viable for running a capacitor/kickstart battery delete setup. I built a Dyna out of two fried units (the rear pickups fail occasionally, I speculate due to heat/irregular voltages), but almost built one of Lou's GM HEI module circuits...

So with the lighting with key off in mind, and my current Dyna ignition, I am leaning towards the Antigravity 4 cell. Ballistic says the smallest 100-009 scooter battery will not fare well with a large 4 cyl bike's charging system, but the next size up the 100-110 will work. The antigravity batteries seem to be far better quality, and do not require a balancing charger to extend their lifespan, although they do sell lithium-specific antigravity chargers. Gotta work some more overtime I guess... I will be trying out the large 75v rated caps on one of the next two project bikes, however. Hoping to get a 79 gs425 to mod out with a gs1100 aluminum swingarm, gs750 big bore pistons, suspension & brake upgrages, etc... That will aldo be on a huge diet despite it's stock featherlight weight. Now if I can just get my buddy to sell it to me!

 

[Chuck78]

Antigravity AG-401 on order now. They said it will work great, but to really watch headlight/accessory use with the engine off, as you do not want to drop the battery voltage below 10 volts ever. Maybe it's time for an LED replacement headlight bulb since my low beam on the H4 just burnt out. That will drop the voltage useage A LOT as well as my LED brake/taillight bulb. Chinese LED h4 drop in conversions sell for $20 on ebay. May research that & shop around.

 

[Rich Ard]

Overcharge kills them too - you'll want to upgrade your r/r.

 

[Chuck78]

I got my antigravity 4 cell in the mail today, and the bike fired up on the first kick of the kick starter! It is TINY compared to the original, and 1/6th the weight. 1.0 lbs vs 6.3 lbs for a small capacity lead-acid battery!

1050rpm yeilded 13.19 volts, 12.98 volts with 60 watt high beam two front running lights one taillight and brake light on at 1050. It quickly rose to 13.7 revving to 2500-ish, and hit 14.1 or 14.2 volts max with a very quick rev to 4500 (loud exhaust, neighbors..., I didn't want to push it to 9000).

Sounds like the Shindengen SH-775 (Polaris/CanAm/SeaDoo OEM) r-r will be perfect for handling the task of keeping this battery in it's very specific safe zone. I am certain with those voltage readings that with points or the GM HEI module based custom ignition circuit, that a 40,000uF cap would have zero problems in a kicker only battery delete bike with a modern regulator-rectifier.
I should also add that I used my 12V test light in series between the battery cable (unhooked from battery) and the battery terminal (negative still grounded though) to make certain that I had no parasitic drains with the key off, as this would ruin the LiFePO4 battery if it drained below 9 volts or so. about 8.5-16v is the actual voltage range these things can handle including voltage spikes, so the suggested 10.2-14.5 is a safe zone. Ballistic says 9.6v min I believe. They all use the same style/voltage cells basically, so are generally the same power handling capability, as I read on another post from a very informed poster who worked in the battery industry.

Knock off another 13 lbs or so from the once 552 lb hulk now at about 495, starter and gears and flywheel very soon, down to about 486lbs...

 

[ProSimex]

cool beans!

 

[Chuck78]

well, I've got the parts now to begin the tear down of two spare complete crank cases to build one bottom end out of the best parts, & I will be removing the entire starter clutch gear that sits behind the charging system rotor, so I am pretty committed now at not running an electric starter! Starter clutch gear, idler gears & shaft, starter motor all removed, 5 lbs saved on the battery downsizing upgrade, I should be able to remove the entire starter relay, as nothing else ties into the load side of it other than the starter motor. Then I just need to make some sort of junction block connection or add a real fuse box to my bike at that point where the line (battery/charging system) side of the starter relay has a few various wires tied into it.. Heck maybe I can even remove some of the starter wiring from the bike, although I don't want to hack of the original harness.

ProSimex, is your screen name a pun on Anti Cimex? I always preferred Broken Bones over Discharge, except the drummer was a bore.

 

[ProSimex]

Holy fucking shit, no one has ever got that.

Yeah my name is Simon, and years ago people started calling me Simex cus I had a pile of Anti Cimex patches on my vest and patch pants. I recorded a nonsense noise demo of sorts one day with my buddy and called it Pro-Simex and I've just used it on forums ever since.

Oddly enough Ive only started listening to Broken bones on a regular basis, they just never really caught my attention before.