KONG - color sanding metalic flake mid coat ...???

timdhawk

Been Around the Block
I got my gold flake ground coat layed done nicely. Then I shot my mid coat color a bit on the heavy side and got generalized orange peel. My local paint shop said to color sand down the high spots and re-shoot the mid coat color.

SO... i color sanded 2 of my 3 parts with 1000 then 1500 grit, got out all the little specs of mystery stuff and high spots. Now I can see some gold spec spots showing through the mid coat - pin points really -.

Once I reshoot the mid coat color, will the fadedness of the color sanding show through since the mid coat color is transparent or will it blend? And then will I still get the metalic "pop" of the flake when its all said and done?

Please tell me I dont need to sand ot all down and start from square one again...

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I'm concerned about your 'pinpoints' of flake, but if you've got it sanded go ahead and shoot another couple of coats of your intercoat clear but slightly over reduced this time. Also, shoot a test panel with the stuff first and play around with your air pressure by a couple of pounds each way. Try going up something like 3 pounds and then backing it down if you need to. I think you can do away with a good deal of that orange peel by trying that. If not go talk to your local paint store guy and see if he can find you a quart of some compatable reducer that is the slowest he can find. Slow, slow, slow. Aside from it being summertime, always use the slowest reducer you can get away with.


I believe you plan to shoot two more colors over your flake, is that correct? If it is and you can tame your intercoat clear then you can continue on with your paint job. I think it should work out fine for you.


I should have told you this earlier. With flake I like to shoot over it with the same clear that I will finish with over it, a full three coats. Then I let it sit for two days before I block it with 800p to bring it back to flat. Then I go ahead with whatever goes over it - and with flake you have to shoot something else with it or it will be a big glittery blob, about as attractive as a rhinestone dog turd. Anyway, once you have a catalyzed clear over it and sanded flat it makes for a great base for taping really crisp and straight (symmetrical) lines and of course you've safeguarded your underling flake. If something goes wrong above it you can always just sand back to the clearcoat and redo the top without touching your flake. When you use an intercoat clear you really can't do that successfully very often.


It is really pleasing to to see you getting deep into this. I can tell you've got the bug. Let me act like the grandfatherly old fart and tell you a little something. After you get this one done you're going to look at it real close and find every flaw in it. There will be plenty, but a lot less than you expected. Also, your friends are going to go bonkers with compliments, they will act like that paint job is the last prelude to the second coming. But you'll know better. And also you'll know you've got half a quart of clear and plenty of other paint left over. You'll also know that ..ready for thus? .. knowing what you do now you could knock out the same job in about half the time and do twice as good a job on it. And the temptation will be there. Hmmmm, what to do?


This is the test - if you're hooked within the year you'll find yourself sanding it all off and doing it again. If you decide to do that I'd suggest this, go to Craig's List or EBay or somewhere like that and pick up a spare set of tins to paint, then just do the switch when its done.
 
Kong,

I like that idea about clearing the flake...I will use that next time.
Im only going to shoot one more color and thats gloss black in my knee dents, so the red (supposed to be burnt orange) is my final color.
I will get the next level of reducer for high temps. My average temp localy is low 90's and my reducer is one for 70's-80's.
Also, Im working on 3 hrs of sleep right now so forgive me for being a little dense:

As far as the part i sanded to much on and got the flake pinpoints showing through, are you saying i should just re-shoot my red midcoat over what I have now? Will I still get the flake "pop" in the sun, or will those "points" be really obvious?
I'm half tempted to just sand the red back down to the flake and then re-shoot the flake and red from scratch again. I hate the idea of it not being right. (I've got one pin hole that I know is there but is to late to fix now and it might as well be a solid dog turb in the paint)

And as far as my tank - which i have not sanded and still have the orange peel - i do have a light spot or two that needs to be re-shot so should i color sand the high spots, being very careful not to hit the flake, and then reshoot the red? or should I try to take it down to the flake again and do as mentioned above?

I wish I could just let it go and slap it all back on the bike. My level of expectation far exceeeds my talent (currently).
 
Also, in my no sleep + 1 beer delerium, i thought i remembered something about a 50/50 water rubbing alcohol mix - either to clean with or to mimic what a clearcoat would look like... so I tried it (haven't resprayed my mid coat yet) and it sure looked pretty...BUT the flake "spots" did show up. SO... reshoot a coat or two of my mid color to hide them, and i should be good, yea?
 
Keep sanding until there's no more peel. It has to be absolutely flat. Then shoot how ever many coats it takes to get the color right. Make sure the gun is set right and you're using the right temp of additives. After the right amount of time shoot several coats of clear and then sand and buff the clear. If this is your first time with a buffer. go slowly, lightly and stay away from edges. The paint is always thinner than and you can have a burn through.
 
Unfortunately its almost certain you will see little pinpoints where the flake was sanded into. If you shoot another couple of coats of your intercoat clear it will tell you if they show up or not. Before the stuff dries you'll know if you have to sand it back or not and the call will be completely yours. Don't wait 'till it dries to inspect it, have good light while you shoot it and see if its objectionable immediately after you squirt the stuff on. Remember, 2 coats. Light on the first and let it flash, the a normal second.


Now, the problem. Its 90 degrees where you are ... same here. You said you're using reducer for temperatures 20 degrees cooler. Need I say more? Flake needs time to lay down, just a little bit longer than a standard basecoat.


Aw, what the hell. You got plenty of paint left, right? Sand it back down. It will only take you a couple of hours to do all the parts and now that you've done it until your fingers are down to nubs you've probably got pretty good at it. You don't have to go all the way to metal, but take off all of the old flake. Go ahead and use something like 240 grit paper (on a block) to take it off, then sand to reprep for paint. This time, (starting with 400p grit and then moving to something around 600p) block sand everything with at least as great a care as you expect to when you cut and buff it next week.


First thing to do is shoot 2 coats of your epoxy sealer. Give the first coat 2 hours to set and then shoot the second. Give the second coat an hour and then start painting.


First, shoot a coat of black. Flake can be shot as dense as you like but unless you put it on as thick as a brick house there will be the minuscule spaces between the flakes where you see what is under it. You plan to do your knee dents in black, so shoot your under-color black. Then shoot your flake over it. Slow, slow, slow reducer but don't over-reduce. Use the maximum recommended, but no more.


When you get the color orange you're looking for in the flake stop and go ahead and shoot 3 coats of your catalyzed clear. Let it set for 2 days and then block sand it again. This time use 800p grit paper. Then you can tape it for your Knee-dents and shoot them. If you get coverage in 1 coat good for you, but try to get it in at the most 2 coats. Let it tack, wait a couple of minutes, and pull the tape (carefully). Try to get it off soon enough that the ridge melts back down but not so soon you string out a line of not quite dry paint. Then shoot your clear. You know the routine, dust the first, act sensible on the second, lay on the third, and hose on the fourth. ;)


I like to give them two days before cutting and buffing, but then I'd like to find a pot of gold some day, but about as often as not I do it the very next day. Waiting is better. Before you start sanding on the parts wash them off with lightly soaped water. Do all of your block sanding with lightly soapy water too. Just a little squirt of dish soap in a 5-gallon bucket will do just fine. Let your paper soak for about 20 minutes before you start too.
 
Yep!! I have decided to sand it back down and start over - well sort of. Is the any reason I cant just sand all my red off back down to the gold flake and then reshoot a coat or two of the flake and then red again?
What would be the reason to take it back down to primer?
(of course there is that F-ing pin hole that I could fix)

Strike all that... I see now about the primer. I sanded it all down and ther was no way of keeping it just at the flake level. So it looks like I get to start at the primer stage agian.
This time I will go slower and get so freaked out...

also are you saying that a coat of black under the flake will help it "pop" more?

PS - here is what all the fuss is about:

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That is a very good looking bike.


Last night I sat here for ages and wrote all sorts of stuff you might do. But then I just killed it and went away.


I wish you were close by. I'd paint it with you and we could trade tips as it went along. However I don't want to get in the way of what it is you want to do or how you want to do it. I have a pretty set way I do any paint job, it doesn't vary much no matter how complicated the actual end result might be. If something goes wrong, and it happens, I will fall back in the process, but only as far as I have to go and then I'll get right back in step. Basically my process - which is just like almost any other painters - is this. Bodywork if needed->Bare Metal-> Sealer->Filler->Sealer->2K and block->Sealer->paint->clear coat->cut and buff.


Each step has its own sanding regimen except Sealers are never intentionally sanded and as a general rule neither are base-coats.


The single step "Paint" can obviously be quite complicated, but the choices are basically this, either a solid color base-coat, which may mimic a more elaborate method. An example would be House of Kolor's "Shimrin" line. These are colors you shoot as if they were any other solid color base coat but when properly applied they finish like either candy, pearl, or even very fine flake jobs, but of course they are much much easier to apply.


The alternative is to do as I believe you are doing now, which is mix and match your own. That is an ambitious thing to do on a first paint job, and even on a tenth, but the processes work about like this. If you are shooting either a Candy or a Pearl the first thing you have to do is prep to a finer grade of sanding. This is also true of very fine metallic paints, and almost all silvers. Instead of doing your prep sanding up to 600p you will need to go up to 800p or so. The reason is that the pigments in those paints (or the dyes in true candy colors) will line up in the scratch marks at 600p and not look good. This presents a bit of a dilemma in that most paint manufacturers will tell you not to sand that fine, that the base surface needs more "tooth" to assist in the bond. Be that as it may, if its candy or pearl you must sand finer.


The first thing you need with a candy or pearl or even a flake, is a base color. Particularly with candies and pearls the base color will greatly effect the end color, but even flakes when applied at less than full coverage need a background color other than gray, white, or black primer. Generally for candy colors you will use either a silver or gold for the base, something reflective. For pearls you can use white primer and tint it to control your final color or you can shoot any color of base-coat you want and apply the pearl over it. Tinting is the easiest, and least expensive way to go though. Toners, which are very concentrated pigments or dyes, are used for the purpose. Most paint manufacturer's make them, I use Hose of Kolor stuff myself and their line is called the Kandy Koncentrates. A little bottle of it goes a very very long way and only cost a few dollars. It is not only used to color primers or to tint white base-coat though. You also use it to make your own candy colors by simply mixing it with either inter-coat clear or a catalyzed clear. Same thing for pearls, you can add it to pearls, and same thing for flake (dry flake), in that you can mix it along with the flake in your inter-coat clear. Flakes are normally mixed with a clear, either inter-coat- or catalyzed, and shot on. You need a gun with a big cap for this but most "primer" guns have a 1.8mm or larger cap, so you can use them and your carrier has to dry or set up slow enough that the flake has time to lay down. You gain time with your reducer and if you have to paint at night or wait until cooler days. One way or another you have to give it time. The other thing with flake is to decide just how dense you want it. Sometimes you only put enough flake in the clear to sprinkle highlights around. So with those you paint a color, and then shoot over it with a clear with flake mixed in. Most jobs want more though, so you mix more flake in the clear (up to the max recommended by the maker of the carrier) and if you need it denser you shoot more coats. In either case the more flake you put on the less you see the under-color, but its not necessary or even desirable most of the time to completely cover it. You can almost always get better effects by letting a bit of it shine through. In either event though to get the final color you are either going to have to shoot candy over it or, and this is the better way, just mix a toner in with the flake and get the color at the same time. You have to shoot some test panels to find the right concentration of toner (always less than 20% by volume) for the color you want, but once you've to it the color becomes very easy to duplicate from one part to another. Just count coats.


Back to the story. Flake will shoot lumpy, like bad orange peel. So you are going to have to shoot some clear over it and sand it out. As I said earlier I shoot the same clear over it that I will use to clear coat the work when it is finished. Most inter-coat clears weren't made to be sanded. Anyway, once the flake is on and the clear is shot over it the work has to be given time to dry (and off-gas). Two days or more is good. Then block sand it back flat but depending on what you plan to put on top of it (other artwork, or color, or clear) you decide how fine you want to sand it. Clean it back up and tape whatever needs it. Tape will just love it and with the plastic tapes you can do some really intricate things. Also, don't be a bit bashful about taking your ideas to a local Sign making shop - most will be happy to make up vinyl masking templates for you real cheap, which is great if you want to do any logos or lettering, or even intricate designs.


Now the other part. All of that is using two stage paints and process. There is a base coat and then there is a clear coat. We play tricks with the base coat part, but its really all the same. With this method the base coat is non catalyzed paint and the clear coat is catalyzed. You put hardener in the clear coat, none is necessary (though some guys put it in anyway) in the base coat. Well, its isn't all like that. With some paint systems its all catalyzed from start to finish. This is much more complicated and durable way to do a paint job, it also results in the most spectacular finishes, and it is also by far the most expensive and it is the very least forgiving of mistakes. One of the major advantages of fully catalyzed systems is that there is essentially no limitation on film build. Now that isn't true of course, you can't plaster on the paint a half inch thick, but with some custom jobs there can be a surprising number of coats of paint involved; over 20 is not uncommon. With a base-coat/Clear-coat system you want to get it on there with as few coats as possible.


So that should give you an idea of how the world spins and I hope it gives you something to work with to figure out where you are now and where you want to go next. If you've got it sanded flat back to a sound base then your best bet is to just reseal it and go on. I'd get a solid base color on it and then put on the flake. You didn't say what carrier you are using for your flake, but I assume its the inter-coat clear by whoever's paint you are using. When you get as much flake on it as you want go immediately to clear coat. Stay within your time windows. Shoot on 3 coats and let it set for a couple of days. Come back and sand it flat and then add your artwork, the black knee-dents, any pin-striping you want to do, that sort of stuff, then clear coat it with another 3 coats. If you want to go hog wild nuts you can come back a week later and flow-coat it if you like, but that would be like putting sugar on Frosted Flakes, like putting butter on a McDonald's hamburger.


Now, if we were standing around in my shed (paint booth) having this conversation right about now I'd look at you and say "So, what you want to do?"
 
I know this is going to come off completely asshole-like and Im for sure, not trying to be a dink.. But Ive been a painter since right out of high school and about 98% of the things Im seeing you guys talk about would be solved with a different gun... What kind of gun are you working with?

Kong for sure has some good points though, and seems like he's not talking out of his ass. The first thing you should be doing is getting a different reducer. Which I know Im talking probably a little late here and you've already figured it out but when its hot out, the slowest reducer is the best if your going to be using flakes. ESPECIALLY if your not working with a top of the line gun, most of the cheaper guns will lay more flake in one spot of the spray. Meaning, you'll spray completely straight on a piece of paper and the bottom will look way heavier than the top. Watch out for that because if that would happen, obviously with much bigger pieces so I guess this isnt even worth typing right now ;D but you'll get it in the sun and go, 'wheres that sandpaper again?'
I remember one of the first hoods I sprayed on a car when I first got into a shop was a high flake color and I was working with fast reducer and a cheaper gun.. Looked good in the shop, took it outside and wow, I learned a lesson there..
 
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