Learn me Relays

[PHeller]

Ok, so I'm installing a toggle switch to control the power to my bike. This means there will be no key switch, but I'll still have stock controls. So I can turn my lights on/off, and have a kill switch in its normal location.


The thing is, most single pole, single throw toggle switches aren't rated for more than 25 amps, and I want a little added protection. I also want this switch to be faily low-profile. Something that someone won't see and say "I wonder what this button does?"


So I hope to run a small 3amp mini-toggle, painted black, in a hidden location.


Powering this switch will be a 30amp relay.


But what other ways are relays used? What is the purpose of a multi-pole relay?


Is a multi-pole switch with a 30 amp rating just a relay and switch combined?

 

[lingo]

But what other ways are relays used?

They are used for exactly what you are using one for. A low amp circuit to control a high amp circuit

What is the purpose of a multi-pole relay?

What do you mean by " multi pole"? Relays have to have at least 4 poles to operate.

Is a multi-pole switch with a 30 amp rating just a relay and switch combined?

Not at all, it just has heavier components internally that can handle the amperage.

 

[frogman]

I hate linking Wikipedia but this is a good one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay

 

[teazer]

Get a Single Pole Double Throw so that one is Normally Open and teh other is Normally CLosed. That way you can switch between two beams on a headlamp.

Or use a SPST relay to turn each circuit on. I use a pair of SPST relays on the headlights, triggered by the normal bar switch and another one triggered by the kill switch to turn the ignition on.

Or get an RFID proximity switch to replace the main keyed switch for a super stealthy look.

 

[PHeller]

Or get an RFID proximity switch to replace the main keyed switch for a super stealthy look.

What's this?


Being that I want to ditch my key, stealthy is cool.

 

[PHeller]

one triggered by the kill switch to turn the ignition on.

So when you flip your kill switch, does all power to the bike go dead? Or just the ignition?

 

[frogman]

RADIO FREQUENCY IDENTIFICATION or the same thing they use to lock and unlock doors in cars or the cool new keyless systems for cars that unlock automatically when you get near them and get in and push a start button.

Buddy has a system on his harley that disables his alarm when he's within 10 feet of it and enables it when he walks away.

 

[teazer]

So when you flip your kill switch, does all power to the bike go dead? Or just the ignition?

All the ignition circuits on The Phat Trakka go through the relay ie coils and DYNA modules. Other circuits still go through the main keyed switch.

 

[teazer]

What's this?

Being that I want to ditch my key, stealthy is cool.

Frogman gets it. Look up car alarms and keyless entry systems and RFID proximity switches.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RFID-Keyless-Entry-AK-502P-Push-Start-Stop-Engine-/250868124538?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a68e7cb7a

Or modify this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RFID-LUXURY-CAR-ALARM-fbss-air-ride-proximity-sensor-/190548612692?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5d951654

Or adapt this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Car-Alarm-RFID-Immobilizer-Vehicle-Security-EM-Card-/180701285385?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a12a2cc09

Or modify this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/RFID-TAG-ALARM-SYSTEM-PERSONAL-SECURITY-STOPS-THEFT-NEW-/160390349416?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2558028268

All you need is the micro controller. tags and sensor and build the rest yourself.

 

[Tim]

BTW - for what it's worth, my XS650 has a single fuse on the battery lead, which I currently have a 10a in. Haven't had an issue. So... back to the original issue - a 25a main power switch is plenty.

I do like the RFID idea I have a proximity key on my MINI Cooper and love it. Would be nice for my bike to turn off when I walk away from it. But, then again, sometimes I sit close to it, so I'd still want a manual power switch as well. Would be pretty cool to get off the bike, leave it running and walk away to have it shut itself off.

 

[Dyrden]

I wired one up for my R1 and it works great. Im going to do the same for my CB. You can get creative and wire it up to function how you wish...

 

[PHeller]

I personally don't think the RFID or any techno-wizardry is really all that necessary on an old bike this. If someone has the time to get on your bike, they also have time to roll it onto a truck.


Back to Relays,


Does a multiple pole relay just allow you to hook more thing up to it? Will it turn on all attached accessories with a single switch?


I just don't understand how the double throw, double pole or triple pole idea works.

 

[frogman]

The pole count just means how many separate channels you can run. a single pole switch for example has ONE channel, meaning that everything has to run through that one side. A double pole has 2 channels and you can run half of the load on one side and half on the other. And so on. The THROW counts for how many states a switch has. A single throw is like a common light switch, on or off, one throw 2 states. A double throw has 3 states, OFF, ON, and ON. This switch is like a combined headlight and dimmer switch. Light off, light on low, light on HIGH. They are separate circuits and will NOT be on at the same time.

The terms THROW and POLE come from back in the day when the huge blade style switches like you see in the movies. The poles are visible as each blade is a pole. The Throw is because some of them had so much power you literally grabbed the handle and THREW it in to the on position. Either that or get a shock and showered in sparks.

 

[surplus 6]

the guy who runs my second home, http://oldskoolperformance.com/ has had the same thoughts for his gpz1100, here's the build thread on there. pop in, all welcome.


http://oldskoolperformance.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1664

while on ebay the "where the hell to put the ign switch" appeared in my head. Sod it, Ill build a RFID keyless ign for it and put the rfid reader in the tailpiece where the fuel computer used to live. Got to make a new loom anyway

First a rfid reader, this sends a +12v signal when the keyfob is within 3" of the relay and turns it off again when the fob goes out of range, not much use on its own but...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230447025897

Couple it with this configurable latching switch...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330557926343

So the rfid reader will trigger and latch the state on the mosfet switch which will control the main relay.

 

[PHeller]

All that RFID stuff is cool, but all the boxes and junk are a bit much when my goal is to slim down the bike.


I'm just trying to think of simple and creative ways of making sure the bike is both easy to start and fairly secure, while looking very simple. Personally, I think big gauges and indicators lights are not simple, so to get rid of all that is the primary goal.


If a relay, or a few, can allow for some minimal switches that are both low profile (so they don't scream, IGNITION!) and easy to get at, then I'll try the relays.


But from what Tim is suggesting, I might just be ok with two (one open and one hidden) inline 25amp toggles.

 

[teazer]

Get a sealed micro relay like these http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Relays/relays.html

They are tiny. Use one for the ignition and tuck it under the tank. Use two for both beams on the headlight and slide them inside the shell or under the tank. Mine are mounted above the headlights and behind the number plate. The ignition relay sits inside a small box under the tank that looks like a small frame brace.

You could mount 3 relays on a small plate by the coils for example or Velco them to the frame rails.

Keep things simple and use good modern components and it will be small, neat and tidy.

EB will also sell you a simple set of 6 18gauge wires sleeved 60 inches long for only 10.49. New wires already sheathed at that price is a no brainer. http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/Products/Looms/looms.html

Or get sheath from Vintage connections http://www.vintageconnections.com/ and make your own loom. I ordered sheath and connectors from them at the weekend and they were here on Tuesday to replace the connectors on a FEMSA self generating ignition.

As you can see from http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm 18guage is fine for any motorcycle circuit and you could use thinner for switches with relays.

Here's some wires http://www.autowiringsolutions.com/category.php?category_id=143

It's not as hard or as expensive to wire a bike as people might fear. Just take your time and draw things out on paper (or on your PC if you have suitable software)