My findings on Online Universities. What are your experiences / opinions?

elduderino

Been Around the Block
Due to my current work schedule I do not have the ability to finish my degree at a traditional brick and mortar facility, so in order to keep moving forward with my degree I have been taking courses online at AMU (American Military University). Obviously this is not my first choice of schooling, but I figured if I could knock out some classes it would benefit me. Here is what I have found:

1.) You will learn, but you will teach yourself. I say this because there is minimal contact with your instructor. Be prepared to read copious amounts of material, as well as write numerous essays for every class you take. You will also have to do weekly discussion boards, which can sometime be an issue. An example of this is that you are required to post one topic, as well as respond to three other classmates topics. Well.....if they don't post initial topics until Friday or Saturday, that only leaves you 1-2 days to respond and hopefully your schedule allows you to do so.

2.) It's not cheap. Recently at AMU they added a "technology fee" of $50, bumping up the tuition rate to $800 per class. I have found these schools are all about the money more than anything else. Recently AMU changed their registration process where you can no longer select your class based on the instructor; I think this is a huge scam and I will explain why. When I contacted AMU and asked why this was, I was told "It was just a university decision to evenly distribute students in our general studies courses." I was also told by the person I was talking to that she had never been able to select her professor the whole time she was in University in Kansas. I don't know how this is, because when I was in school in New York I was always able to select my Professor, as have all my friends who went to school in Georgia and Texas. There are numerous blogs and books on how to choose the right professor for you. So back to the point of why I think this is a scam. I feel that instructors with bad reputations never had students sign up for their class, while good instructors had full classes. I feel if you are spending $800 on anything you should be able to do your research, read reviews, and choose the best product for you time. Me personally I would select a "hard" instructor that teaches me over a "easy" instructor that is disorganized. By doing this I have managed to always have decent/good instructors; now I am going to loose that ability. Here is one example of someone I would avoid: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1587459 Not saying they are bad, but if 50% of the reviews are saying similar complaints, then I have to believe there is some truth to them.

3.) Course lengths are different at every university. AMU offers 16 week courses and 8 week courses. With the 8 week course I feel that one class at a time is a good number. However, other universities, like University of Phoenix offer 5 week courses. I don't possibly see how you can learn any subject in 5 weeks.

Overall if you want to knock out some classes it's a viable option. Am I impressed with online school.....absolutely not. It's more work, more reading, more papers, and you don't take exams. I think if you only do online school you will miss out with in class discussion which are far more important than most of the stuff you actually read. Some people hate exams, but I feel in order to truly earn a degree you should have to show some competence. Getting 50% of your grade for participation and then 25% for assignments/essays, and 25% for a final assignment/essay is unsatisfactory for me. I would be curious to see statistics on how many people actually fail these classes. I would also be very hesitant to say a 100% online degree is equal to that of a brick and mortar school.

Rant done lol please share your experiences.
 
If the courses don't easily transfer to 'real' degree courses, they are pretty worthless.
(many do not transfer)
As for choosing a course based on the teacher?
Yep, some are better than others but oo many 'students' feel they deserve a good grade for no reason other than the amount of cash they are paying
 
For me it doesn't even matter that I get a degree. Every possible employer I've talked to (which has been around 10 without a biased choice) has said straight up "We're mostly looking for real world experience and self motivation. Degrees are nice, but it's surely not the priority." Or something very close to that. The worst I've heard is "Having a degree is very important to our team. But we would seriously consider you for your sole experience."

On a related note, I hope that this is how most employers start seeing things. Who cares that I got my degree in laying mortar when I spent that 2 years of my life learning how to make that one teacher happy. I'd want someone who's been doing it for years on their own time and dime.
That, and I hope employers start seeing the benefits of telecommuting. Especially with all the new technologies it makes it incredibly easier to work from home to the point where going in to the office becomes incredibly inconvenient, tiresome, and a waste of time and money for both parties. I know a lot of geezers are going to disagree, but that's inherently what happens with new technology. And is the thing that's holding most of these new protocols back from becoming mainstream.
 
As long as you check beforehand you can find out if the online schol is accredited nationally and/or regionally. If so and the brick and mortar school you want to go to is also, then they by law have to accept the credits.

I'm the same way. I think a degree is just a checking of the box. It's good for those starting out because it proves they can at least stick with something for four years and uphold some kind of standard, but does a 22 year old college grad have more knowledge, leadership, etc. than someone who has been doing the job for years? Absolutely not.

Unfortunately for managerial and higher level jobs you must have a degree most of the time. Of course if you have the experience and a degree you are going to get the position over someone that has one or the other. For management I can see why they want a degree. Yes you may be great at a particular skill set, but can you write reports, evaluations, etc.?
 
An opinion from the other side, perhaps?

First, acceptance of credits isn't based solely on accreditation -- they can reject credits for a variety of reasons.

Second, as a disclosure, I am a prof at a brick and mortar, giant state university.

Third, I know someone very high up at AMU. They pay their profs by the # of students enrolled in their classes, which creates a perverse incentive to dole out good grades, to increase your reputation, to increase your students.

Fourth, University of Phoenix, for example, is a joke. Their model has also created perverse incentives, and they have been getting into legal trouble the past couple of years.

Finally, I am not opposed to online teaching. It can never substitute for the human interaction of traditional universities, but I also accept that it is going to happen. It seems good for vocational degrees, but the argument that it makes economic sense is betrayed by the facts that, at University of Phoenix for example, most people don't graduate but come out with a lot of debt, and no matter what you paid for a degree if you can't get a job because nobody respects your degree it was money wasted.
 
Wow, lots of good information. Thank you for correcting me on that. I must have read some bad information on transfer credits, so I'm glad to hear that directly from an actual professor.

Wouldn't you think if professors are abusing the system to get more pay by building a reputation that would be more an inside investigation versus not allowing students to select their professor?

I'm with you on what you said; no online school can replace a true in class experience. I too have always questioned the amount of pull an online degree holds.
 
elduderino said:
Wouldn't you think if professors are abusing the system to get more pay by building a reputation that would be more an inside investigation versus not allowing students to select their professor?

Not sure what you mean by this -- do you mean that the university should investigate to see if this is happening? The answer is yes, it should, but again there are incentives not to investigate. Scandals affect the bottom line, and most online colleges are simply about the bottom line. What separates a university from a college, BTW, is the emphasis on research. At tier 1 research universities (like mine), there are other problems -- faculty get tenure based on research, not teaching. It's one of the reasons why 4-year colleges can be better at teaching, although profs at these are usually required to do some research and publishing. At online universities, the research requirement is absent.

I think AMU is better than University of Phoenix, but you should do some poking around at the scandals that have come out about UP in the last 3-4 years, including a in-depth NPR story with interviews of UP's founder. And then watch this:


http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/university-of-westfield-online/n12560/
 
Managers don't want to know and don't cre about grades as long as the 'bottom line' stays up
In fact, there are plenty of good honest instructors/tutors/et but the unwritten rules are make sure everyone passes, no matter how bad.
If a student is failing, it isn't students fault for being stupid or lazy (or doped up) it's tutors fault, but, if you write anything down about it managment gets really pissed as things documented have to be acted on
When a pair of students admit to cheating, rules say they have to re-enroll for the class they cheated but managers call you in the office it's real disheartening
Any 'for profit' school can have these problems, once a reputation has been lost it's difficult or impossible to get it back
Where I worked, from 2005~2010, when management changed and school 'went public' it was all about numbers, many graduates couldn't get interviews when they said which school they went to as the reputation had dropped so far
 
@ carnivorous chicken: That is what I meant, but I guess like you said if it's about them making money the why would they penalize themselves. It's sad to hear all this. Luckily I was just doing a few classes here and there in hopes that they would transfer. I never wanted an online degree, so before I started I checked to see if my state university would accept them..... hopefully they still do. What is messed up is that poor lower enlisted people are now burning through benefits, only to have a useless degree.... I wish my net was fast enough to see that video, but unfortunately I can't.

@crazypj: That is crazy. What exactly is a "for-profit" school versus a public or private school?
 
All universities and colleges are essentially "for profit." Some feel the need to (in their terms) subsidize things such as humanities and arts through the bigger budget fields (computer science, engineering, business, etc.). The university where I work takes 52% of all grant money -- get a million dollar grant, and half is gone when you sign the dotted line (nominally for overhead, facilities, keeping the lights on, etc.). Other universities -- and this is the growing trend -- feel less of an obligation toward traditional departments that don't make money. These programs and depts. get cut.

Universities are also moving away from hiring tenure track faculty and toward having (poorly paid) adjuncts (with no benefits, pension, etc.) teach. It lowers the level of teaching, but frees up tenure track faculty to concentrate on research (and landing big grants).

Are you on the GI Bill, el D? My strongest recommendation to you would be to enter a community/junior/two-year college where classes are small and tuition is cheap. Bang out your 100- and 200-level courses. Keep your grades up. Get your AA or AS, then transfer to a state 4-year university in 2 or 3 years. State universities have transfer agreements with community colleges, so if you meet a minimum GPA requirement (2.8 -3.2, usually) you can transfer automatically with little problem and most or all of your 100-level and above courses will transfer. This is also good for people such as me, who fucked around in high school and waited 5 years before going to college. I aced community college, continued to study hard, didn't stop me from getting into grad school and getting my doctorate.

I am happy to help if you have any more problems, you can PM me if you want and I will give you my #, but I suspect there might be others interested in this. Dunno.
 
First off, I really appreciate all the insight. I think for other people's sake it might be good to keep the meat and potatoes of this conversation open, but if I have any specific questions I can contact you offline.

I attended college in upstate New York at a SUNY (State University of New York) school, before I got my current job. I was doing like you said; going to a cheaper school and then transfer to a bigger university. With my credits from New York and my military credits transferred I was only a few classes short of my Associates in Gen. Ed., so I decided to take the last 5-6 classes online (currently 2 classes left) out of pocket in order to save my GI BILL for when I wanted to finish my bachelor's degree. At the time those online credits were said to be transferable to my local University in Georgia, however I don't know anymore. I figured with a Gen. Ed. associates I would be good to have my core classes knocked out, then when I went for my bachelor's I could focus on the actual degree I was interested in minus the fluff.

Now I'm starting to think those classes might not be of any value. I will have to contact the university to see what they accept today. So this is where I am torn, should I finish the last 2 classes and have an online associates degree versus having no degree until I get back to a brick an mortar school?

Also with the Post 9/11 GI BILL I can basically get free tuition to any school I want. I even applied to some very esteemed private colleges in the past that were close to $40k a year, was accepted, and they had programs to cover the tuition my GI Bill wouldn't cover. With that being said, I want the most degree for my money, so I'm thinking about finding the institution with the best program (when I decide exactly what I want to major in) and moving in order to do that. I have nothing tying me down right now. Any input on that?

I'm really not a rock, I just took a different path. I graduated with honors and could have gone to university for free, but I enlisted in the military and ended up in similar line of work that didn't require a degree.
 
I went straight from a Jesuit college preparatory high school to a state university, and then into the military. Bad idea on my part, from a structured system that actually believed in education, to one of the worst universities in the Pacific Northwest. I had full rides to real universities, and ended up at a party school...have I dropped enough hints yet CC, and no, not Evergreen...

My problem at uni was not keeping my mouth shut when the course material in my field was decades out of date, I had field experience in several climates/topographies/states (the instructors did not), or the tenured professors were flat out revisionists.

Wonder how I'd have turned out if I'd been allowed to accept the offer to graduate in 7th grade (when I took the S.A.T. test) and attend John's Hopkins... Graduated high school in the top 10 percent of the state (WA)

My wife is pushing me to go back to school, completely different field. State medical program is only a 30-40 minute commute, but as much as I hated college the first attempt, rather leery to take on that kind of debt again. Not many scholarships for 40 year old, disabled white guys...
 
elduderino said:
I attended college in upstate New York at a SUNY (State University of New York) school, before I got my current job. I was doing like you said; going to a cheaper school and then transfer to a bigger university. With my credits from New York and my military credits transferred I was only a few classes short of my Associates in Gen. Ed., so I decided to take the last 5-6 classes online (currently 2 classes left) out of pocket in order to save my GI BILL for when I wanted to finish my bachelor's degree. At the time those online credits were said to be transferable to my local University in Georgia, however I don't know anymore. I figured with a Gen. Ed. associates I would be good to have my core classes knocked out, then when I went for my bachelor's I could focus on the actual degree I was interested in minus the fluff.

Now I'm starting to think those classes might not be of any value. I will have to contact the university to see what they accept today. So this is where I am torn, should I finish the last 2 classes and have an online associates degree versus having no degree until I get back to a brick an mortar school?

Also with the Post 9/11 GI BILL I can basically get free tuition to any school I want. I even applied to some very esteemed private colleges in the past that were close to $40k a year, was accepted, and they had programs to cover the tuition my GI Bill wouldn't cover. With that being said, I want the most degree for my money, so I'm thinking about finding the institution with the best program (when I decide exactly what I want to major in) and moving in order to do that. I have nothing tying me down right now. Any input on that?

I'm really not a rock, I just took a different path. I graduated with honors and could have gone to university for free, but I enlisted in the military and ended up in similar line of work that didn't require a degree.

Took yesterday off to buy a 1960 Chevy Apache (and got a flat driving it home), so I didn't get to this.

Regarding the first question, if I were you, I would verify that the online college you're finishing up with has a direct transfer agreement with the state (4-year) colleges and universities. If it does, then I wouldn't worry about it; the BA or BS from the 4-year is what matters most.

Second, glad you are on it in terms of how the GI Bill can help, and glad you're going to use it. The idea about moving somewhere else with a better program to get your BA or BS can be a good idea, but there are at least two things to worry about. First, the transfer agreements that state universities have with community colleges are, as far as I know, confined to the state in which you do your AA or AS. Not positive about this, and it would be worth talking to someone at an out-of-state university that you're considering. That being said, if you ace your AA or AS (high grades) then it likely won't be much of a problem. The other downside is that you will be considered an out-of-state student if you transfer to somewhere else. Way higher tuition -- but if the GI Bill covers it all, then no problems there. I just don't know if there is a limit that they will pay on tuition.

Another thing to consider is that if you are thinking about graduate school, which is a whole different kettle of fish, and there is a lot to talk about pros and cons there, that is usually where a student aims for a program that is well regarded in his/her field. So a BA/BS (with good GPA) from a state university can get you into a grad program with a specialization that you're interested in. If you want to do this, you've got to cultivate 2 or 3 relationships with profs to get letters of rec. This can be awkward, but we (profs) know the deal and most expect it (although some are assholes about it). I've written letters of rec for some of my students who have gone on to law school, medical school, graduate school, to get Fulbright fellowships, and others. I have a good record -- I'm just bragging at this point. But the bigger point is that I care about my students, not everyone does, so choose mentors wisely.
 
Scruffy said:
I went straight from a Jesuit college preparatory high school to a state university, and then into the military. Bad idea on my part, from a structured system that actually believed in education, to one of the worst universities in the Pacific Northwest. I had full rides to real universities, and ended up at a party school...have I dropped enough hints yet CC, and no, not Evergreen...

My problem at uni was not keeping my mouth shut when the course material in my field was decades out of date, I had field experience in several climates/topographies/states (the instructors did not), or the tenured professors were flat out revisionists.

Wonder how I'd have turned out if I'd been allowed to accept the offer to graduate in 7th grade (when I took the S.A.T. test) and attend John's Hopkins... Graduated high school in the top 10 percent of the state (WA)

My wife is pushing me to go back to school, completely different field. State medical program is only a 30-40 minute commute, but as much as I hated college the first attempt, rather leery to take on that kind of debt again. Not many scholarships for 40 year old, disabled white guys...

Now I'm curious -- I did two BAs at the UW. Was it Western? Not SU or PLU... although I guess SU does have kind of a party reputation despite being Jesuit (it's on Capitol Hill after all).

As far as keeping your mouth shut, different profs will take things different ways. Academics are, for the most part, egotistical but also insecure. Some are just bad teachers. Some are autism spectrum -- Asperger's. Some are cut throat, petty and vindictive. Part of learning in a class is to realize how one can approach the instructor, or when not to. Which also means sometimes it's smarter to hold your tongue, especially if you have a vindictive prof, because at the end of the day he or she will assign your grade.

As for there not being many scholarships for disabled white guys, I would encourage you to do some research, and ask the scholarship office at the university for some help. There are scholarships geared toward non-traditional (i.e. older) students, disabled students, vets, and all sorts. There are also certainly minority scholarships, but you shouldn't see them as taking anything away from you -- they are designed to get traditionally (and still) underrepresented folks into desks. Despite what the SCOTUS said the other day concerning the VRA, there are many things that haven't changed in this country.
 
Think far eastern side of the state... year or two after I left, a campus riot made world news...

I'm looking into either University of Memphis or UT Medical after I figure out which junior college to start over at. Was advised when we looked into a community college in Biloxi MS to declare academic bankruptcy and start over... My wide did that, graduated with a 4.0, all credits transferred to Memphis.

Off the charts I.Q., and I've pretty much wasted it. I get bored very easily...
 
carnivorous chicken said:
Took yesterday off to buy a 1960 Chevy Apache (and got a flat driving it home), so I didn't get to this.

Regarding the first question, if I were you, I would verify that the online college you're finishing up with has a direct transfer agreement with the state (4-year) colleges and universities. If it does, then I wouldn't worry about it; the BA or BS from the 4-year is what matters most.

Second, glad you are on it in terms of how the GI Bill can help, and glad you're going to use it. The idea about moving somewhere else with a better program to get your BA or BS can be a good idea, but there are at least two things to worry about. First, the transfer agreements that state universities have with community colleges are, as far as I know, confined to the state in which you do your AA or AS. Not positive about this, and it would be worth talking to someone at an out-of-state university that you're considering. That being said, if you ace your AA or AS (high grades) then it likely won't be much of a problem. The other downside is that you will be considered an out-of-state student if you transfer to somewhere else. Way higher tuition -- but if the GI Bill covers it all, then no problems there. I just don't know if there is a limit that they will pay on tuition.

Another thing to consider is that if you are thinking about graduate school, which is a whole different kettle of fish, and there is a lot to talk about pros and cons there, that is usually where a student aims for a program that is well regarded in his/her field. So a BA/BS (with good GPA) from a state university can get you into a grad program with a specialization that you're interested in. If you want to do this, you've got to cultivate 2 or 3 relationships with profs to get letters of rec. This can be awkward, but we (profs) know the deal and most expect it (although some are assholes about it). I've written letters of rec for some of my students who have gone on to law school, medical school, graduate school, to get Fulbright fellowships, and others. I have a good record -- I'm just bragging at this point. But the bigger point is that I care about my students, not everyone does, so choose mentors wisely.

1960 Chevy Apache! Lets see some pictures of this classic beast. Bummer on the flat, but I'm glad to hear you made it home.

Great advise. I will check with the university and see if they will still honor the credits before I go any further.

The new Post 9/11 GI BILL is actually pretty good. While it seems to be constantly changing, it's always changing positively.

"The Post-9/11 GI Bill (Chapter 33) will cover the in-state cost of tuition/fees at any public college and university in the nation. Starting August 1st, 2011, if you are an out-of-state student, the VA will pay the in-state rate for the same program you are enrolled (undergraduate or graduate).

Since the VA will reimburse tuition/fees for students attending private schools up to $17,500/year an out-of –state student should consider weigh their school choices carefully."

And like I said with other programs there are always ways to get what you need in combination with the GI BILL.


I'm glad that you take care of your students. It seems like you have produced some stellar students. My sister, a single mother, went back to school in her mid 20s at a local college. She managed to not only finish her degree, but got picked up on a full ride doctoral program. She's getting a salary now and working with some great people, while earning her PHD. Not a bad deal.

I guess it's good to have options, but I just hate to waste time. I make excellent money now, so it's hard to quit to go back to school to make less money. However, long term if I want a stable job in one spot, I am going to have to give up this line of work. I wish there were some good, legitimate online universities.

Thanks again!
 
A lot of brick and mortar schools have online programs now. I'll he able to finish up my degree online, never have to step foot in another class again.
 
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