DO THE TON

Blood Sweat Tears and Grease => Electrical => Topic started by: Cursh on Sep 25, 2017, 21:29:24

Title: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Sep 25, 2017, 21:29:24
Pardon my posting this before I have enough information. I'm partially posting it because I'm wrenching in a vacuum and need a sanity check. I'm also posting this because the progress I'm seeing on this (ancient frustrating decade-long) build is measurable, but the failure point seems to be fairly stoic.

At this point, I've already fucked up everything on the bike. It's not worth wondering if I've been in there to mess it up. I have. I haven't cracked the cases. That's the final frontier.

Last weekend I came to the destructive realization that my regulator/rectifier wasn't cutting the mustard. A shiny new electronic ignition from pamco Pete (thanks, Pete). bit the dust and the bike stopped running promptly somewhere down the street within a reasonable distance to push the paperweight home. Having overstayed what I believed to be a reasonable amount of user caused electronic ignition failures and warranty claims, I moved on to something that I was hoping would be easier to poke at and see if it was working.

I order a Charlie's Place ignition and regulator/rectifier to install on my bike: comes in, I wire it in (using vintage connectors latching connectors and 16 ga wiring and the bad-ass crimper tool, and fancy sleeving and all that jazz.)

The bike fires right up. I tepidly ride it around the neighborhood and with growing confidence ride it further and further from the house in concentrically large loops of blocks. The bike pulls all the way to redline (for the first time in years.) and the exhaust note is that of a singer sewing machine (in textiles we trust.) I bring it back to the house and park it on the street, proud to display my triumph.

Next morning, I hop on to head to the post office (5 miles round trip, which is nothing in Phoenix, but maybe too far for my second trip?) The thing rides just as well as the day before. Nice acceleration. Smooth sounding engine. No hesitation or stumbling. Get to the post office and it dies while waiting to take a left turn across traffic. I push it into the lot, drop off my packages, and poke around.

I forgot my tools so I head home. I'm hoping I flooded the engine or something and that when I head back it will run.
<embarrasing bus ride home with helmet>
I head back around 3pm (it was 10am when the bike died) and I've brought my tools. I poke around. There is power to the ignition system and the coils (CHECK) there is fuel in the carburetors (CHECK) and there is some sort of 9V signal going to where the points connect to the coils (I didn't bring my test light, so I had trouble seeing if they light up and dim appropriately through the kickstart cycle). 12.8 V from the battery (should be plenty to get her going. 12.6 starter her this morning).

No idea what is going on. My first plan is to see if I fried the electronic ignition (when I get back with a test light.)

Here is the list of things that I have personally done in the past 25 miles of this thing moving down the road (and in the last 6 months of real time. I also get that "personally" is probably the problem here.)

Carburetor boot replacement & carburetor sonic cleaning (purple green and distilled water.)
new wiring harness (custom, but gets the power to the place that matters)
New rectifier Regulator.
Valves Set
Timing Set (very well, if the running of the thing can be used as a metric)
Cam Chain Tensioner Replaced
New Coils
New Spark Plugs (Pulled them and they are the right color.)
New Ignition Switch (can't be the problem. Coils are getting power)
Carburetor Synch

Any thoughts? I know this is a game of "what is the easiest to check vs the most likely to be wrong" but I'm at my wits end. Carburetor blockage? It died so anemically and won't fire on either side. That feels like an ignition issue.

If I've fried another electronic ignition with the new regulator/rectifier (matched by the manufacturing company) how in the bloody hell did I do it and how do I keep from doing it again in the future?

Any help is appreciated.

Photo as a thanks for reading the tome:
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: irk miller on Sep 25, 2017, 21:40:39
I say start simple: 

Did you check all of your fuses?  When you kick it over (do it with your foot, not the switch), does it spark?  Pull the plugs and check.  If it does, then your coils and fancy new ignition is probably fine.  Re-install the plugs and pull their wires.  Try starting it up a few times.  You can keep trying to start it with your foot so you don't use up too much battery power or overheat the wires to your starter solenoid.  Are the coils wet?  If so, than your fueling may not be an issue.  Check timing and valve clearances. 
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: trek97 on Sep 25, 2017, 23:58:41
I say start simple: 

  Are the coils wet?

I think Irk meant to say "are the plugs wet?"

I read you checked gas in the bowls.  But enough gas?  Check to make sure you got good flow through the tap.  Not clogged.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: XS750AU on Sep 26, 2017, 01:27:16
Quote
I say start simple
+1 on that. First establish is there spark at the plug? If =no then that is where to look further.
 If there is spark, then start looking at fuel. Start from the line into the carbi and progress on from there.
Sorry if it is instructing on egg sucking!!!
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: teazer on Sep 26, 2017, 10:46:55
As was already mentioned, pull the plugs and check for sparks.  If it has sparks, see if they are close to right time - ie check that the ignition rotor didn't move out of place or come loose. 

It's also possible that the carbs sucked in some dirt that is now blocking a jet, so if sparks are all OK, clean the carbs, fuel tap and filler cap (it may have a blocked breather hole). 
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Sep 26, 2017, 11:22:45
Awesome. Thanks for the pointers. I've read that ungrounded plugs can cause a problem for electronic ignition. That's the only reason I didn't check for spark that way yet. Anyone have the over-under on when that becomes a problem? Is that just a "monster in the closet" sort of situation?

Wet coils threw me for a loop. I thought "this is a new trick I've never heard of"

Will post results here for anyone interested. I'm heading out of town and would love to have parts waiting for me when I get back (assuming I can identify the failure and order the correct parts.)

Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Ryan Stecken on Sep 26, 2017, 11:34:24
Let us know if you got spark.good luck!
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: irk miller on Sep 26, 2017, 12:03:49
I've read that ungrounded plugs can cause a problem for electronic ignition. That's the only reason I didn't check for spark that way yet. Anyone have the over-under on when that becomes a problem? Is that just a "monster in the closet" sort of situation?

Wet coils threw me for a loop. I thought "this is a new trick I've never heard of"


Ha!  Yeah, sorry about the wet coils.  If I was smarter, I would've come up with a witty follow up.  As far as testing the plugs, you can find somewhere on the motor to lay them (or clip them) to get grounded and see spark.  Essentially, the spark is going to be looking for a ground. 
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Sep 26, 2017, 14:41:33
Spark on the right. Not on the left. Had to run to the airport before I could dig more. Next steps:
1.double check no spark on left.
2.swap coil blue/yellow wires and recheck both sides for spark. (Tests connections and coils)
3.look for wet plugs (Note dampness of coils)

Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: XS750AU on Sep 26, 2017, 19:08:45
Quote
I've read that ungrounded plugs can cause a problem for electronic ignition.
If the plugs are not earthed then they will not spark. To earth, simply hold then against one of the cooling fins, or any other bare metal part of the engine. I prefer a shaded location so it is easier to see the spark.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Sep 30, 2017, 00:18:00
If the plugs are not earthed then they will not spark. To earth, simply hold then against one of the cooling fins, or any other bare metal part of the engine. I prefer a shaded location so it is easier to see the spark.

So... I was told by someone that not having your spark plugs connected while turning over the ignition can overload the circuitry of an electronic ignition. That was generally confirmed by pamco pete (He blanked agreed with all the ways I was worried about tanking the ignition. He didn't specifically agree with that one.) I know that a spark plug won't fire if it isn't grounded.  ;) I'm at least that far along in my learning.

I've also realized that I didn't check to see if my slide was jammed again. That has been happening occasionally. I can usually work it out after a few repositionings of the rubber replacement boot. I'm wondering if I should carve out some material from the bottom of the slide on the lathe to keep it from happening again. I was also thinking about installing a thin o ring as a bumper, but that would move my needle up by the thickness of the o-ring. Doing that seems like it would be a huge shift in tuning (which based on the strong linear pull to redline when it did run last week would be a step in the wrong direction overall)...

Thoughts? I'm no machinist, but I have the machine. (I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier)

4: Check slides (pull airboxes. Poke fingers in the air side. Feel for free movement.)
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: trek97 on Sep 30, 2017, 06:05:53
Strip a couple inches back on a wire and wrap it tight around plug threads. Trap other end under a bolt head on engine or frame.
Then you can safely check for spark.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-070815190355-147887.png)

If you dont have the slides vent holes facing towards the filter, they will "hammer" themselves to death in the bore and this will cause sticking.

Look closely around bottom edge of slide for shiny spots or any roughness. 
Use a fine file or emory paper to sand smooth.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-070614073955-3741327.jpeg)

After I sanded them smooth.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-070614073956-3891153.jpeg)

I had to use channel locks to pull the slides out of bodies.  I use a piece of scotchbrite to smooth bores.

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-070614073956-3881523.jpeg)

(http://www.dotheton.com/gallery/11494-220714063350.jpeg)


Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Oct 02, 2017, 10:26:25
Thanks, Eric. Thatís a great step by step. I should be able to dive in and tackle that this afternoon. I also finally managed to get those CL mufflers to slide on. Had to weld a new piece to the one that was factory welded and track down the carbon gaskets (all praise be to common motor). They sound really good. Thanks for sending them along way back when.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: trek97 on Oct 02, 2017, 11:39:21
Thanks, Eric. Thatís a great step by step. I should be able to dive in and tackle that this afternoon. I also finally managed to get those CL mufflers to slide on. Had to weld a new piece to the one that was factory welded and track down the carbon gaskets (all praise be to common motor). They sound really good. Thanks for sending them along way back when.

Glad the mufflers are worked out.  That was a long time ago.  Forgot I had sent them.  They look super.  Keep us updated w what issue you find.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Oct 04, 2017, 13:13:00
So I took it to the shop and they turned it away. Too much wrench time with an inexperienced mechanic (fair). They did say:

Fuel smells old..

Got back to the bike this morning: drained the tank and tested the ignition with a test light. Full cycle and the right timing  performed well (light cut out once per rotation) and the left one stayed lit the whole cycle.  Thatís likely my problem. I also have a sticky slide, so Iíll be pulling my carbs off an cleaning them up per Trekís how-to

Not sure how I could have fried the ignition. New rectifier and new ignition (matched). Gonna do a few more tidying bits while waiting for a replacement ignition. The blinkers and parking lights work great, but there isnít space in the bucket for the flasher relay. Iím gonna move it back to under the seat. Iím also going to go back to a stock battery size and fuse box. The Ascot has a brand new AMG in the CB360s factory size. It wonít need it until I figure out why the engine failed. That might take another 8years, lol.

Just quit my job to consult, so Iíll have a bit more time between now and Christmas to throw at both of them.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Sonreir on Oct 04, 2017, 13:22:21
You're running electronic ignition or points?
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Oct 04, 2017, 17:15:00
You're running electronic ignition or points?

Electronic Ignition.

I probably called something the points up there by habit. I still call the blue and yellow connectors at the coils the "points connectors" and am having trouble relearning.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Sonreir on Oct 04, 2017, 17:36:20
Which brand are you using?
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Oct 11, 2017, 16:53:53
I've been working on a custom rewire (masochist?) and I put this together from my hand-scrawled notes:

The rectifier is "Charlie's Place Type 1" Ignition is also Charlie's Place.



Any obvious errors in here? This gets the functionality I'm looking for out of the Kawasaki "pass" switch I've got for this project. Without the relays (waiting to install them later.) I'm just tying the hi beam to the pass switch. Pass only works with the low beam on. With one relay (Yellow, white, brown) I get flash if the lights are off or hi if the lights are on (90%) The second relay adds a "cut high beam" if I hit the pass button and the high is already engaged.

Charlie from Charlie's place tested the original ignition and I should have a replacement in a day or two. The wires were pinched in the cover. I have to be more careful about that.

Coils are 12Kohm/ 5.4 ohm in the left and 12K ohm/ 5.0 ohm on the right. Both of my caps have the correct resistance.

I'm pulling the new 12A battery from the other bike to put into the factory location. I'm hoping the extra amps will help me make it through longer stop lights with the factory charging system. I can always opt to kill the lights if I'm sitting for an especially long time.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Sonreir on Oct 11, 2017, 17:23:16
You'll want brown and not brown/white for your parking circuit. And I don't recommend using the turn signal for the parking light, since the ignition switch will have power running through the brown wire when the switch is in the ON position.

Also, the stator isn't three phase, it's single phase, so you should have a separate yellow, pink, and white wire and not three yellows.

What's the purpose of the DPST switches? Is the dimming not being toggled with the KZ control?
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Oct 11, 2017, 19:06:41
You'll want brown and not brown/white for your parking circuit. And I don't recommend using the turn signal for the parking light, since the ignition switch will have power running through the brown wire when the switch is in the ON position.

I get this when I test the switch/ look at the factory wiring diagram.
OFF:no connection
ON: black to red & brown to white/brown **
PARK: red to white/brown

**It looks like this breaks a connection between the tail light and the rest of the incandescents on the bike so that when in park the entire bike doesn't light up. Without needing to isolate the left blinker circuit (the handlebar switch does this for me) I'm just leaving the brown wire detached. When the bike is on, there is no power running to the left signals.

I'm more asking than stating a strongly held belief...

Also, the stator isn't three phase, it's single phase, so you should have a separate yellow, pink, and white wire and not three yellows.
I hear you are working on something in that area =). Im following and interested in the outcome.

The rectifier manufacturer specifies that the pink/white/yellow can be attached to any yellow wire. I should probably fix the graphic to specify the wire color to the alternator. This is an area where I know that I don't know anything at all. Whatever is happening inside that gold unit is magic to me.
Install diagram is here (http://1twi2d35njtz327qba2bnlig.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/reg_diagram.pdf)

What's the purpose of the DPST switches? Is the dimming not being toggled with the KZ control?

When I wire up the pass switch in a way that makes sense to me I have a switch that is blips the high beam as long as the headlight is switched on. (I've never had it wired into a factory location, so I'm not sure what normal functionality is)

The first DPST relay changes the functionality sot that pressing the switch blips the low beam if the headlight is off and the high beam if the head light is on. If the highbeam is on, nothing happens.
The second DPST relay cuts the high beam if the high beam is on and doesn't impact the circuit if the hi beam is off. 

I still haven't figured out the zener diode circuit for the idiot charge light. I've seen the $16 green/yellow/red LEDs on ebay, but I don't know how much effort it will take to hack it into the appropriate housing to fit in with the other indicators.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Sonreir on Oct 12, 2017, 12:27:08
Weird... normal ignition switch wiring for the old Hondas has everything you describe, but park output is brown and not brown/white. If yours tests out differently, keep what you have.

The rest sounds OK to me.
Title: Re: So lost...CB360
Post by: Cursh on Oct 12, 2017, 15:18:59
Thanks for the gut check.

I'll double check my continuity. I've got a cheap emgo reproduction main switch(though it feels solid enough) so it's possible a wire was hooked up backwards (and equally possible that I wrote my wiring notes down incorrectly.)