Brainstorming New Business Model - Cycle Garage Co-op/Hackerspace

We used to have these (the may still) on most Navy bases for service/dependents to use. Very small fees for us, of course - but great to use. Even had rebuild stalls to rent for the month or tune-up stalls for brake jobs, oil change, small jobs. You had to be out of them by 10 pm. They had a great advantage that you don't. No liability worries. We were all "owned" by Uncle Sam anyway, so we couldn't sue for hurting ourselves by being stupid. Your liability insurance would be sky-high in these days of a lawyer on every corner trying to talk people into suing for hot coffee in their laps.

A club might actually be the best idea. Incorporate a non-profit for educating in motorcycle maintenance. Charge dues only for covering admin expenses. Fees for use would be for-profit, but that is allowed for non-profits as long as you pay tax on it. Should decrease liability, as they would have to sue the club (officers are safe from prosecution except in cases of gross negligence or actual intent to harm.)

BTW, I'm not a lawyer. You should consult one whatever you do with your idea.

Sent from my LePanII using Tapatalk 2
 
Love the idea, hope it takes off for you.

One thought- insurance. What type of policy do you need considering non-employees will be working on bikes in your building? Maybe each has to sign a waiver? What a great way to discover new talent- to see it happening right in front of you- and possibly find future employees.
 
ADC,
I know a guy in Philly that does a very similar thing, only for woodworkers.
http://www.philadelphiawoodworks.com/

He has a business degree from Wharton, and he's an exceedingly nice guy. Good brain for you to pick I would say. His name is Michael
 
Good luck with the project, I love the concept and wish there was a shop like it near me in UK.
All our small friendly bike shops seem to be clossing down and the big operators are only interested in there core business.
 
SONIC. said:
I know a guy in Philly that does a very similar thing, only for woodworkers.
http://www.philadelphiawoodworks.com/
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Terrific Web site.

There are some artist cooperatives like this, too. I contacted one of them once a few years ago before I bought a whole bunch of stuff and set up my shop, that a similar type of thing for motorcycles, with metal working equipment and what not, would be good. So, I guess I first had this idea around 2006. That is when I would have liked to have had something like this available to me to join.
 
OK, you get another $.02 worth outta me. A lot of people have chimed in about how expensive insurance would be, etc., etc., but if you scale back your starting plan a little and start with people you know and trust (and even the people they know and trust) you'd be much less likely to be at the receiving end of a stupid lawsuit because someone cut their finger off with a grinder. Friends (and friends' friends) take responsibility for what they do to themselves, and realize that if they're the idiot that files a lawsuit over something stupid, they're the ones ruining it for everyone else (and themselves). This is how skateboarding survived the down time from about 1982-1992. For-profit parks were the model, starting in the 1970s. Fear of lawsuits and the decline in popularity of skateboarding closed all the parks by 1982 or so, with a couple holdouts to the mid-1980s. This, despite the fact that when I and a group of others did research in the 1990s we could find zero lawsuits by skateboarders against parks -- in other words, the fears were unfounded (the economic realities of the decline of skateboarding, however, couldn't be denied). But in the mid 1980s through the mid 1990s, people built their own stuff in backyards and rented warehouse spots. And nobody sued. By the early to mid 1990s, skateboarding had exploded in popularity again, and cities started building public, not-for-profit parks. Long story, I know, but the bottom line is if you at least have an idea of who is going to be using the space, you can be assured that people aren't going to sue, and close the whole deal down. And if you think people's private insurance will sue on their own without the insured person's consent, that never happened with me, my insurance company, and the broken bones and torn ligaments I suffered in the 1980s and 1990s (and 2000s and 2010s).
 
carnivorous chicken said:
OK, you get another $.02 worth outta me. A lot of people have chimed in about how expensive insurance would be, etc., etc., but if you scale back your starting plan a little and start with people you know and trust (and even the people they know and trust) you'd be much less likely to be at the receiving end of a stupid lawsuit because someone cut their finger off with a grinder. Friends (and friends' friends) take responsibility for what they do to themselves, and realize that if they're the idiot that files a lawsuit over something stupid, they're the ones ruining it for everyone else (and themselves). This is how skateboarding survived the down time from about 1982-1992. For-profit parks were the model, starting in the 1970s. Fear of lawsuits and the decline in popularity of skateboarding closed all the parks by 1982 or so, with a couple holdouts to the mid-1980s. This, despite the fact that when I and a group of others did research in the 1990s we could find zero lawsuits by skateboarders against parks -- in other words, the fears were unfounded (the economic realities of the decline of skateboarding, however, couldn't be denied). But in the mid 1980s through the mid 1990s, people built their own stuff in backyards and rented warehouse spots. And nobody sued. By the early to mid 1990s, skateboarding had exploded in popularity again, and cities started building public, not-for-profit parks. Long story, I know, but the bottom line is if you at least have an idea of who is going to be using the space, you can be assured that people aren't going to sue, and close the whole deal down. And if you think people's private insurance will sue on their own without the insured person's consent, that never happened with me, my insurance company, and the broken bones and torn ligaments I suffered in the 1980s and 1990s (and 2000s and 2010s).
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Not to be a dick, but this is the worst advice I have ever heard in my entire life.
A best friend, a friend of a friend, a friend of a friends friends fiance, all if put in the correct situation might sue. You can never count on "nah dude i got it its my responsibility"

Say Some guy goes into his shop, start using the sawzall. He cuts off finger.
So now he rushes to the hospital and have the finger reattached, his insurance sucks but they go ahead and he comes out owing 50,000 dollars to the plastic surgeon for reattaching his finger. Now he can't do his job for several months while that heals, so he loses his job, his family is starting to go hungry, and his bills are piling up.
Oh wait, he can sue the guy that gave an untrained idiot a sawzall, and he has a pretty damn good case, he didn't sign a waiver, or the waiver was written by a friend of a friend who dropped out of law school.
Bottom line ADC is fucked, lawyers take everything.

Just because skateboard parks got away with it doesn't mitigate the risk. Chances are he would be absolutely fine without insurance, but is it worth it? WHat happens when hes 65 and ready to retire and gets sued by some jackass put in a bad spot and then he's left broke?
 
I think there is a great demand for this kind of business. In Vancouver there is Motomethod which is similar to your concept. I believe they charge an annual fee, which includes free tire changes, advice from the mechanic and winter storage option. If one gets in over their head though, the mechanic can finish the job. As soon as the mechanic touches the bike then hourly shop fees apply.

There are lots of people who need a place to work on their bikes and I can see this this business having a social club atmosphere to it. You could have little seminar nights, social nights etc.

I love this idea but just to echo some others insurance is the big issue. Maybe your customers would have to have their own insurance, sign waivers.

Oh yeah, out of towers could also be potential customers (nothing sucks worse than breaking down away from home and having to wait for some shop that you aren't familiar with to get around to your bike.
 
and he has a pretty damn good case, he didn't sign a waiver, or the waiver was written by a friend of a friend who dropped out of law school.
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I was going to bring up a waiver, or liability release form, be signed by the patrons.... but I do not know Poop from Pork & Beans about that type of thing so figured I'd better not. I am not sure it it would hold up or not if push came to shove.
 
My day job is as an attorney [ducks to miss incoming punches, shoes and whatnot]. You can achieve a pretty solid liability protection with a simple signed agreement that includes a waiver of liability for the dangers inherent with your planned type of activity. Your liability insurance will help cover you in the event that you are sued anyway. Yes, people will still try and sue even after they've signed a waiver promising that they won't. Thankfully, insurance companies usually pick up the attorney's tab for these scenarios. However, there is still some remaining liability for acts which are considered "negligent", which could be defined quite simply as something a "reasonable person" would not have done in a similar situation. Have an employee try to juggle running angle grinders and hurt someone? Negligence. However, you can help eliminate the risk that such claims could come back at you by having employment agreements that say employees are personally liable for acts of their own negligence, so basically you only have to worry about yourself. I know people hate on attorneys but we really can make your business a lot more liability proof with the right documents and proper wording. The trick is finding someone who doesn't think they're god's gift to non-attorneys and charges $500 an hour to pick their nose and have some intern do the work for peanuts. If you and the investors decide to move forward, I'd highly recommend getting everyone (insurance, legal, etc.) together to hash all this out.
 
SONIC. said:
Not to be a dick, but this is the worst advice I have ever heard in my entire life.
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In your entire life? Really? Hyperbole much? I'm guessing you're young. Or just a dick. Or both! Just kidding guy, take it easy, I'm sure you've heard worse advice!

ADC, don't let Sonic join your co-op, he'll sue!

That's how it works.

By the way, I could've sued in a couple of my injuries, and it would have made things a hell of a lot easier. But for the reasons I listed, I didn't. And I'm happy I didn't. One flaw of Sonic's argument -- universal health care, just about everyone will have insurance (if it works correctly, and yes I know there will be plenty, especially on the bottom rung of the economic scale, who won't) so they won't need to sue to cover their medical expenses.
 
I would love to have a place like this near by and would for sure try to get hired on as staff (under qualified as I may be, thats how learning happens right). I know there is a place like this for cars down the street from me that I have never used but a bike place would become my home away from home.
 
carnivorous chicken said:
In your entire life? Really? Hyperbole much? I'm guessing you're young. Or just a dick. Or both! Just kidding guy, take it easy, I'm sure you've heard worse advice!

ADC, don't let Sonic join your co-op, he'll sue!

That's how it works.

By the way, I could've sued in a couple of my injuries, and it would have made things a hell of a lot easier. But for the reasons I listed, I didn't. And I'm happy I didn't. One flaw of Sonic's argument -- universal health care, just about everyone will have insurance (if it works correctly, and yes I know there will be plenty, especially on the bottom rung of the economic scale, who won't) so they won't need to sue to cover their medical expenses.
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It really is pretty bad advice based on a single anecdote. Also, health insurance doesn't always cover all costs. A general liability policy is good protection in this situation.

Disclaimer: I am an insurance salesman. Hopefully youse guys are already out of tomatoes.
 
Well, I guess the main flaw in my argument would be to compare skateboarders and motorcyclists. One group just wants to ride without being hassled by the man, and is prepared to not only build spots for it but create cooperative endeavors to facilitate said action, as well as maintenance. The other is a bunch of guys too scared about getting sued to make something cool happen for their motorcycles, apparently.

It's not one bit of anecdotal evidence, by the way. The entire American skateboard scene existed in backyards from the early 1980s to the early/mid 1990s, without being crippled by lawsuits brought on by injuries against people who opened parks. Lawyers have spoken up here about how waivers could mitigate threat of lawsuits. And need I add that cooperative arrangements like this for building bikes, talking shop, drinking beer, etc., exist all over the country now, have for decades, and aren't the source of constant lawsuits?

I gotta admit that being an online forum allows for social distance -- I've only met one or two DTT guys face-to-face. Social distance leads to mistrust,. ADC, if you know some of the guys who you want to be a part of this, and trust them, fire it up. That's why I said in my first post it'd be wise to smart small, friends, friends of friends, etc.

I'm guessing I'm a little older than the average DTTer (but perhaps not you ADC!), and I could start on the whole "kids these days" rant, and yes, punk rock and skateboarding have influenced my ideas about DIY and the possibility of making things happen, but maybe my vision is blinded by starry-eyed optimism. Fuck it ADC, don't do it, you'll get sued and insurance is too expensive.
 
I should add -- if you're concerned about lawsuits, you shouldn't proffer advice online to others for repairing, changing, or modifying their motorcycles. Seriously, they could sue you if something went wrong.
 
I would dare say that we live in a more litigious society today than we did twenty or thirty years ago - and a solid waiver can mitigate a lot of that risk.

I am not particularly concerned about the advice I offer coming back to haunt me; a third of it is on batteries, another third on how to find part numbers, and the remainder on how to go fuck oneself. Now if that last one goes wrong ill be in serious trouble. ;)
 
carnivorous chicken said:
I should add -- if you're concerned about lawsuits, you shouldn't proffer advice online to others for repairing, changing, or modifying their motorcycles. Seriously, they could sue you if something went wrong.
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LOL!
 
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