Brainstorming New Business Model - Cycle Garage Co-op/Hackerspace

Rich Ard said:
I would dare say that we live in a more litigious society today than we did twenty or thirty years ago - and a solid waiver can mitigate a lot of that risk.
I'm not sure that's true, but could obviously be verified empirically.

Rich Ard said:
I am not particularly concerned about the advice I offer coming back to haunt me; a third of it is on batteries, another third on how to find part numbers, and the remainder on how to go fuck oneself. Now if that last one goes wrong ill be in serious trouble. ;)
So you're the one responsible for that pulled muscle in my back that cost me 2 days' pay and a night in the hospital? This time, Saul will be calling you!
 
carnivorous chicken said:
In your entire life? Really? Hyperbole much? I'm guessing you're young. Or just a dick. Or both! Just kidding guy, take it easy, I'm sure you've heard worse advice!

ADC, don't let Sonic join your co-op, he'll sue!

That's how it works.

By the way, I could've sued in a couple of my injuries, and it would have made things a hell of a lot easier. But for the reasons I listed, I didn't. And I'm happy I didn't. One flaw of Sonic's argument -- universal health care, just about everyone will have insurance (if it works correctly, and yes I know there will be plenty, especially on the bottom rung of the economic scale, who won't) so they won't need to sue to cover their medical expenses.

"no need for insurance, cool people don't sue" is essentially your argument.
I'm sure none of the people on this forum would intend on suing anyone. But when your family is in jeopardy people will do just about anything. I was just saying its not worth the risk and its a HUGE risk, setting up a business without liability insurance (especially if you aren't that young anymore) is one of the dumbest moves you could make in my opinion (coming from a guy that is young, but still pays out the ass for really good liability insurance because I like to keep what I have and no matter how good an employee is, in the right situation anyone will sue).
Example:
My father owns a restaurant. Woman walks in one day and hangs her enormous purse on the back of the chair, chair flips over while she is mid sit, she lands on her ass. She sues for $96,000 in medical bills for negligence. She seemed like a nice enough lady until she went to the doctor and found a bunch of other stuff wrong with her and her medical bills started piling up.

Just as an aside, I have no intention of ever sueing anyone for anything. I make what I have and don't ever intend on taking anything from anyone. But the country as a whole doesn't share that view.
 
We have several liability releases we use for various activities we host or at least allow. Fishing and hunting, harvesting (pecans, walnuts, produce gardens), vehicle gatherings, etc. Costs $5/per for the family attorney to go over the forms and make sure the legalese mumbo jumbo is worded correctly. And our farm liability insurance is phenomenal, pretty much ANYTHING we do here is covered. And, it is cheap... check with Farm Bureau in your state, in TN you can get coverage through them even if you live in the city and have no idea that food grows out of the ground.
 
Re: Re: Brainstorming New Business Model - Cycle Garage Co-op/Hackerspace

Scruffy said:
We have several liability releases we use for various activities we host or at least allow. Fishing and hunting, harvesting (pecans, walnuts, produce gardens), vehicle gatherings, etc. Costs $5/per for the family attorney to go over the forms and make sure the legalese mumbo jumbo is worded correctly. And our farm liability insurance is phenomenal, pretty much ANYTHING we do here is covered. And, it is cheap... check with Farm Bureau in your state, in TN you can get coverage through them even if you live in the city and have no idea that food grows out of the ground.
And you can call Charlie for good advice! (Sorry, inside TN joke there.)

Sent from my LePanII using Tapatalk 2
 
Already shared this with Alpha, but thought I put it up here if anyone else is considering doing something similar

Well, sounds like your ideas are right along the lines of what we were trying to do. Our goal was to have a place to work on/build or customs, do some restorations, and offer repairs. We also wanted to offer folks a place they could work on their own bike, either a short time, done in hours or less, or longer term. We had kinda wanted it to become more of a "community" for like minded folks.

Like you already know, the builds are time consuming and cash flow from them isn't consistent enough to pay the monthly bills. Its the repairs that do that. Not sure what type of bikes you want to service, but we only do classic/vintage bikes. Any era, any country of origin. We don't really do any American V-twins. We are in a small town, halfway between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek. There are at least 10-12 "Harley" Shops within a 20miles radius.

Also there are virtually no dealerships in the region that will work on the old bikes. In fact some of the local dealerships refer people with old bikes to us. What we quickly found out was that there was a significant demand for service on the old bikes, so much so that from late April to late October we run a 2-3 week backlog on repairs. Needless to say, nothing gets done on the customs! It does however pay the bills well enough to get us thru the long winter.

As far as equipment/space rental, we have had minimal demand for that. Several factors I think contribute to that. One we are in a small town/rural area, basically. Most people have someplace they can work on their bike. Another thing is that those who are into the old bikes/customs are folks that not only have a garage/shed/barn they can work in and they do their own work. Of those who have taken advantage of it, it seems to be two groups. Kalamazoo has a fairly large college population who are to a large degree apartment dwellers and don't have anywhere to work on a bike. The other group is the do it yourselfer who lacks a special tool or equipment or the knowledge/skill for certain tasks.

I'd say in the last year, we have maybe had 8-10 people take advantage of this, other than those who use the tire changer. We also offer an assistance program where for half our hourly shop rate, we will work with/supervise the person. As for the tire changer, we have a three tier charge system. One price if we do it, another if we help them do it, and a third if they just come in and do it on their own

THe other thing we found is that some of folks who want to use the shop facilities think you should let them use the space/tools for a song and dance. They seem to think it should be more like going over to a buddies place and borrowing his lift/tools, etc. and you just pay him with a 6-pack instead of going to a business that has expenses just to keep the doors open and things like we have to pay to dispose of tires and store and properly dispose of their used oil.

For that portion of your business plan to succeed, I think a lot will depend on your location. Around a major metro area where folks don't have a place to work on a bike and there are a significant number of them, it might be more successful.

As for insurance, it was ridiculous. Would have to have doubled our rates just to pay the insurance!! And there weren't many who were even willing to consider such a policy. We ended up just having all customers sign waivers of liability.
 
must be something wrong with me
'
i cant imagine sharing my space or "helping " people do there own work all day long

for no amount of money how would i get anything done or go riding???

answering questions is enough for me

i have a wrench day at my shop once a year it takes me 3 weeks to put all my projects away so i can open the doors

that is my limit

Scott it is not to late for therapy

lots of it and real good scotch
 
Almost every military installation has one of these, they call them Auto-hobby shops and are mostly for cars but I don't see why a motorcycle one wouldn't work. Multiple lifts and tools for days, options to rent stalls for months for long term projects, fairly knowlegable guy behind the cage (think Louie DePalma in Taxi), sandblaster cabinet, paint booth and low cost for all of it. The only thing is rent and overhead is free on the installation, I can't see a large shop being cheap on rent in any part of the country except Detriot. Unless your independantly weathly and have extra cash you'd probably end up having to use more of the shop for yourself and selling/repair/maintenance to defray overhead costs.
Oh and the Military has a waiver stating you do not hold them liable for any damage to vehicles or person by using the facility along with a host of rules to abide by or you get the boot.
 
Wow lots of good advice and just advice. I honestly hope you can pull this off. You seem like someone who's not going to just jump in and see if you can swim so I think you have a good shot at this. I live in a city of around 350000ish people and we have 11 bike shops plus back yarders and so on. Yet we need something like this, I have been approached to start something or help run it but we will see how that works out (most shops will look to shut you down out of fear of lost biz). Motomethod in Vancouver has pulled it off. Might want to look them up http://motomethod.com . As for the insurance if you spend the time and look into how woodworking shops and other shops have done it you will pull it off.
 
cxman said:
i cant imagine sharing my space or "helping " people do there own work all day long

I have actually been experimenting with variations of this format. Tony, who I did the CX500 for has spent quite a bit of time working with me on his bike, as well as his son's bike.

I have a couple other people who come to my shop and work on their bikes. One guy is there 12 hours a day. He puts bikes out in the morning, puts them away at night, gives me a hand when I need it, and I help him when he needs it. He has his own tools, but also uses the shop facilities for media blasting, polishing, painting, metalwork. He works independently 98% of the time.

Another guy is a former intern. He comes and works on his bike from time to time. When he needs some tech help, or something welded, I am there to help him.

Another guy did a lot of polishing of parts for his bike. He paid for work like rejetting and adjustments.

cxman said:
for no amount of money how would i get anything done or go riding???

I already have the problem of not having enough time to go riding.
My personal focus in the shop will be restomod work, and supervising my repair mechanic.

cxman said:
Scott it is not to late for therapy

lots of it and real good scotch

Two wheel therapy is all I need, and working on them is almost as thereputic for me as riding them.

As for the good scotch, yes, although I tend to prefer excellent bourbon. <G>
 
Barkingmadspeedshop said:
Motomethod in Vancouver has pulled it off. Might want to look them up http://motomethod.com . As for the insurance if you spend the time and look into how woodworking shops and other shops have done it you will pull it off.

Yes, I have looked them up, and it looks like they have a pretty good model there. I plan to talk with the guy here in Philadelphia who has a cooperative woodworking shop to see what kind of insight he might have.

So much depends on what kind of space I find, and how much money I can raise.
 
These are very interesting ideas and ones with a lot of potential, I believe. However, I see some potential problems. You are the high value employee, and spending your time for less than your time is worth is probably not a good idea. If you are spending 1/2 hour helping-teaching and getting $10 for it when you could have been spending that half hour earning $40 (assuming $80@hr shop rate), you lose. Also, while you are teaching someone to change a spark plug, all of your expensive machinery sits idle, you have to pay for that expenive machinery even as it sits.

What you need to do is maximize your time doing the most productive work you can. So perhaps you could teach a class? If you can get 10 people to learn to do something and pay you then you can justify not doing what you are skilled at doing. So if you have a large number of people renting work space in your shop and some of them have similar learning needs then you could justify using some of your valuable time teaching, otherwise your time is better spent doing the stuff that pays best.

You will need an apprentice as they work cheap and could actually do most of the hands on helping once they have been working on bikes for a few months. Depending on how much work space rents for in your are it may or may not be viable to take on extra space and expence in order to have spacee to sub let for others to fix their bikes. It appears you live in Germantown, so I suspect usable space is pretty expensive? May need to move to a better area? Still, there is a lot of money in your area so attracting guys with fat wallets and little hands on experience may mean you are well located?

I love the basic concept, but just remember you have only so much time and energy and need to maximize that to thrive. If you can justify expansion then by all means do so, but be cautious of finding yourself as the guru that helps others for peanuts when you are capable of earning m;uch more.
 
All good suggestions.

I don't plan on giving my time away. My time will be for sale, with a 10% discount to club members over a certain level.

I also plan to do classes. It's something that I am good at. For example, I gave a tech talk on brake service at our weekly "Two Wheel Tuesday" a while back.
 
I came acros these guys in London UK today, a similar idea to yours, and the website lists there prices etc.
www.ovalmotorcyclecentre.co.uk
 
We had a "rent a space" type garage thing here in town briefly. The guy ran a towing business so it was a neat tie-in. He would tow you home for X but give you a discount if he towed you to one of his bays and you bought a weeks rental. He even set up a part delivery deal with the local Napa and a breaker yard in town that would deliver parts. I think he had 3 bays total? One was for big rig trucks. (We're right on Highway 70... tons of heavy truck traffic)

He got screwed with tools. You could bring your own tools but he wouldn't secure them so you ended up carting your tools back and forth. He had tool boxes you could rent but I'm sure a LOT of stuff disappeared. (They were filled with Harbor Freight crap too, so I'm sure he replaced a lot of stuff)

I think if he had just offered a locker or a room where you could lock up your tools he would have done much better.

-Deek
 
I don't know if you are at this point yet, but if you need any help getting your financial projections in order, I'd be happy to help. It can be my way of giving back to the community that has helped me so much so far.

I'm getting my MBA with a focus on small business development, so if you give me some figures, I can work out your projections. Those investors will want to see a ton of details.

Let me know. Best of luck, I know I'd like to use a place like that.
 
That's a very generous offer.
I have put together complete business plans before, with demographic analysis, and financial projections. (Not easy for me, as I have no formal training, but I am pretty handy with a spreadsheet.) A business plan is an arduous task.

I haven't gotten to that place with this idea, and don't know at this point if the idea will ever be executed. I DID put together and excellent club pricing structure laying out the basic workings of the whole thing. Just don't know if investor's money will ever come to fruition to execute the idea.
 
I am closing in on launching this venture. I am trying to get a space that was an auto garage that is 4,800 sq ft. It's divided in half, so I might potentially be able to rent just half of it to start out. The owner of the building got it at sheriff's sale for a pretty small investment. He is also a rider, so he may be inclined to work with me to launch this venture.

http://cyclehackerspace.com
 
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