"Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer

Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer

Well let's see what happens...5 six degrees in cam timing also makes a difference...so does the duration of our cam. The simplest explanation I can give is that it is a pump with two valves and if the valves aren't "optimized" then the pump isn't as efficient.


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Some one correct me if this is wrong
That 0.02 will drop to effectively 0 once warm so the rockers are pushed on the valves not rapping on them like a hammer
If you imagine opening a door by pushing on the handle with your hand or punching the handle with your fist
both might work but the second way will wear out either your hand or handle pretty fast
 
simo said:
Some one correct me if this is wrong
That 0.02 will drop to effectively 0 once warm so the rockers are pushed on the valves not rapping on them like a hammer
If you imagine opening a door by pushing on the handle with your hand or punching the handle with your fist
both might work but the second way will wear out either your hand or handle pretty fast
The lash for our race cam is .006" and it will be interesting to see what the rocker arms and valves look like when we pull it.

What is fantastic about this forum is that what we are learning on our string is being supplemented by this string.

We learned that cylinder pressure is impacted by the amount of TIME that there is overlap between the intake and exhaust valve both being open together. So when we tried to kick start it we had lower cylinder pressure than when we ran it on one cylinder at 4000k RPMs. Now if you look at the duration of overlap that booth valve being open on a stock cb175 cam it is greater than the cb200 cam. Hence the cb175 was able to scavenge better than the 200.

It will be interesting to see if shifting the timing event with the valve lash on both the intake and exhaust impacts cylinder pressure and then changing that event by having different lashes for both the intake and exhaust...and folks that is why Smokey walked down to the dyno store.

And the Honda engineers said, "let's make Variable Timing and Lift Electronic Control" wow I didn't know it was about beating the tax man. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC


"Due to the behavior of the working fluid (air and fuel mixture) before and after combustion, which have physical limitations on their flow, as well as their interaction with the ignition spark, the optimal valve timing, lift and duration settings under low RPM engine operations are very different from those under high RPM. Optimal low RPM valve timing, lift and duration settings would result in insufficient filling of the cylinder with fuel and air at high RPM, thus greatly limiting engine power output. Conversely, optimal high RPM valve timing, lift and duration settings would result in very rough low RPM operation and difficult idling. The ideal engine would have fully variable valve timing, lift and duration, in which the valves would always open at exactly the right point, lift high enough and stay open just the right amount of time for the engine speed in use."

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simo said:
Some one correct me if this is wrong
That 0.02 will drop to effectively 0 once warm so the rockers are pushed on the valves not rapping on them like a hammer
If you imagine opening a door by pushing on the handle with your hand or punching the handle with your fist
both might work but the second way will wear out either your hand or handle pretty fast

no it will never drop to zero ,that would be an impossible thing to achieve
the lash may stay the same, close up a tiny bit or be more when hot it doesn't matter the ramps on the cam keeps things from "slamming"
 
Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer


xb33bsa said:
no it will never drop to zero ,that would be an impossible thing to achieve
the lash may stay the same, close up a tiny bit or be more when hot it doesn't matter the ramps on the cam keeps things from "slamming"
i wonder what the actual lash is operating with the oil feeding out the cam journal?


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Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer

Texasstar said:
i wonder what the actual lash is operating with the oil feeding out the cam journal?


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i dunno but it can't be zero you gotta figger thermal expansion into the whole deal and any aluminum involved grows almost exactly twice as much as any iron or steel for every degree in temp rise,so yeah the valve grows longer but the head grows bigger as well ill say it again focus on something else besides fudging valve clearance that is a waste of time and effort keep the valve clearance where the cam mfg recomends and move on to things that will actually make a diff
 
Also, zero clearance is very darn close to being held open all the time, which will pretty much destroy your valves and seats and lose you a lot of power.
 
Sonreir said:
Also, zero clearance is very darn close to being held open all the time, which will pretty much destroy your valves and seats and lose you a lot of power.
the cam follower also needs some "rest" time and oil film needs to be replenished zero clearance when hot doesn't allow that
 
Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer


Sonreir said:
.002" for intake and .003" for exhaust, usually.

Ok - just found a manual HerrDeacon posted a long time ago. It says .002 for all 4. I'll start with .003 on the exhaust and see where that gets me. Thanks Matt. Rather be too loose.
 
1sttimer said:
Ok - just found a manual HerrDeacon posted a long time ago. It says .002 for all 4. I'll start with .003 on the exhaust and see where that gets me. Thanks Matt. Rather be too loose.

It might be "better", but it's still not good. Too loose will hammer your valves and tappets.

That said, I'm pretty darn sure that .003" is just fine.
 
Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer


Sonreir said:
It might be "better", but it's still not good. Too loose will hammer your valves and tappets.

That said, I'm pretty darn sure that .003" is just fine.
lol is this where we get the term "splitting hairs"? Lucky is set at .002" on all 4.


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Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer


Texasstar said:
lol is this where we get the term "splitting hairs"? Lucky is set at .002" on all 4.


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Ha ha literally. The manual says to set the rotor at the T Mark, set one side, rotate a full 360° and then set the other side. Why can't you do all four at top dead center without rotating since I have a 360° crank?
 
Sonreir said:
It might be "better", but it's still not good. Too loose will hammer your valves and tappets.

That said, I'm pretty darn sure that .003" is just fine.
there is no "hammering" going on untill the looseness is pretty gross this is just a misconception
 
Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer


xb33bsa said:
there is no "hammering" going on untill the looseness is pretty gross this is just a misconception

The term "noisy valves" has to come from somewhere. Doesn't it?
 
1sttimer said:
Why can't you do all four at top dead center without rotating since I have a 360° crank?
pull the tappet covers and rotate it 360 and watch your valves as one side goes to TDC then do it for the other side....and say Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow ;)


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Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer

The answer is 720


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Re: "Patina" The 1973 CB175 Cafe Racer

When you are at tdc find the side that both intake and exhaust rocker arms have NO tension on them and then check the otherside and one of the rocker arms will be at work.


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