John Murray
Been Around the Block
Oldest trick in the book... oil company claims a special partnership with Ducati/Porsche/KTM or whatever, repackages oil as "special" and charges a hefty premium for it. Step 2 - Profit. 
Texas Two Step Taco
- Thread starter Texasstar
- Start date
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
Oldest trick in the book... oil company claims a special partnership with Ducati/Porsche/KTM or whatever, repackages oil as "special" and charges a hefty premium for it. Step 2 - Profit.
I can hear it now, “You only beat me because you were using Ducati oil.”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
The good news is that the Bultaco has the transmission oil separate from the clutch oil. There are 3 different oils in a Bultaco. BeNOL 20:1, Transmission oil, and clutch oil. This is becoming one of those oil strings. We are Paris Hilton to JR Ewing rich in oil. Will get you some dimensions...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
John Murray
Been Around the Block
Yes. I thought I already mentioned that motorcycle specific oils performed better in tests than other oils including diesel engine oil. Why use something that gave lower results?
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
So back to your testing on Viscosity and the higher the viscosity the better the holding power.
So my buddy who drag races his Harley uses 80 weight redline in his bike. Their rules don’t allow lockups or air shifters. This is how hard his plates are hitting his basket.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
John Murray
Been Around the Block
Your getting sidetracked again. My tests showed there was a small increase in friction with a higher viscosity oil, bearing in mind I didn't test any very heavy oils.
The tests also showed there was a relatively large increase in friction when an MA2 type of oil was used over every other type of oil I tested.
The tests were done on a clutch very similar to yours.
So what I took this to mean is this: use a motorcycle specific oil (preferably MA2) of any reasonable viscosity - if it doesn't run like either treacle or water it'll be fine. Don't overthink it, just go buy some motorcycle oil and get back on the dyno.
The tests also showed there was a relatively large increase in friction when an MA2 type of oil was used over every other type of oil I tested.
The tests were done on a clutch very similar to yours.
So what I took this to mean is this: use a motorcycle specific oil (preferably MA2) of any reasonable viscosity - if it doesn't run like either treacle or water it'll be fine. Don't overthink it, just go buy some motorcycle oil and get back on the dyno.
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
He sent this to me serendipitously on Sunday and I just found it interesting and wanted to share it with you. Zeke is picking me up some Ducati MA2 today from work. Next thing is to make a spacer and my own lock up. I do have a tendency to chew the cud (my grandfather was a dairy farmer and we are Dutch) Those 50cc guys like Luc Foekama are cud chewers also
and that guy from Australia who did all the testing on the oil for clutches but his name escapes me at the moment Geeze....lol.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
idahofrank
New Member
Texas, I like you so don't take offense and remember I am an old guy stuck in the 70's.
You remind me of my ADHD nephew bouncing all over the place.
LISTEN to John and Teazer. I don't know them but I get the feeling they have "been there , done that".
There is a lot of knowledge on here. and I like to learn. I have been learning following your project
Sorry if I offended.
You remind me of my ADHD nephew bouncing all over the place.
LISTEN to John and Teazer. I don't know them but I get the feeling they have "been there , done that".
There is a lot of knowledge on here. and I like to learn. I have been learning following your project
Sorry if I offended.
Forget ATF. And 80wt transmission oil is about the same viscosity as 30W IIRC.
It's good to try things and to do research, but I suspect that you are getting distracted by an issue that will have a minor impact on the outcome. I'd start with better thinner plates with the friction material closer to the outside. How do those plates compare with say a Honda CB175/200 or with a Yamaha RD? And RD clutch will hold 70HP without a lockup. Just sayin'.
There has to be a set of better plates available at a reasonable cost
It's good to try things and to do research, but I suspect that you are getting distracted by an issue that will have a minor impact on the outcome. I'd start with better thinner plates with the friction material closer to the outside. How do those plates compare with say a Honda CB175/200 or with a Yamaha RD? And RD clutch will hold 70HP without a lockup. Just sayin'.
There has to be a set of better plates available at a reasonable cost
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
Thanks Frank I am adhd with the ability to hyper focus
just looking for that dopamine buzz. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The trial and error for drag racing is so much fun. When I raced VWs, we had a car that we knew was built to go at least a half second faster on 1/8 mile times, or more. We were running low to mid 10s and messed with friction discs, carbs, heads, all kinds of stuff. Funny enough, we got our best time (9.48) with two cinder blocks in the front trunk. Go figure.
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
I think we will win this by putting Bluebell in the freezer
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
Barnett composite/steel plate for the Bultaco bandido/montadero
Weight is 2.036 lbs or 925g
Barnett has 5 composite steel plates and 4 metal inner plates.
Overall thickness of the clutch pack is 21.4mm
composite is 2.8mm
Steel 1.85mm
Composite Inside diameter
81mm
composite outside diameter
125mm
8 Tabs 15.75mm width
Tab OD 137.4
Steel inside with 38 teeth diameter
80.6mm
Steel Od 123.85
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
Bultaco Bandido/Montadero NOS steel plates clutch pack has 7 tabbed steel plates and 6 inner plates. Both plates have dimples. Weight is 2.45 lbs or 1112 g
Overall thickness is 19.5mm
Steel tabbed is 1.5mm
Steel inner 1.5mm
Composite Inside diameter
80.85
composite outside diameter
125mm
8 Tabs 15.75mm width
Tab OD 138
Steel inside with 38 teeth diameter
80.86mm
Steel Od 125mm
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Overall thickness is 19.5mm
Steel tabbed is 1.5mm
Steel inner 1.5mm
Composite Inside diameter
80.85
composite outside diameter
125mm
8 Tabs 15.75mm width
Tab OD 138
Steel inside with 38 teeth diameter
80.86mm
Steel Od 125mm
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
John Murray
Been Around the Block
You don't need a locker, keep it simple. If a Pursang clutch like mine (which is 15mm smaller than the Bandidos) can be made to handle over 70hp with nothing more than a plate swap I'm sure yours can do 40 - 50 without completely re-engineering it. Bore out the Barnett plates you already have - or just machine off the facing - until you are left with a contact ring about 12mm wide at the outer edge. Give this a run and if it's still a bit marginal (and I think it will hold OK) get your friend to cut you some thinner steels so you can add another plate pair. Remember this is a <50hp bike, not a 350hp Pro Stocker. It doesn't need to be complicated.
Texasstar
Can't is a four letter dirty word
John Murray
Been Around the Block
After a while you realize the question isn't "How do I solve this problem?". It's "How do I solve this problem within a reasonable timeframe?".
At this point you realize you have two options: you can spend the rest of your life bumbling along with trial and error, intuition and the 5% of internet wisdom that isn't absolute bullshit (and I'm being generous at 5%). Or you can spend a day or two testing and have the problem solved within a week so you can move onto the next one. I'm getting old; I don't have time anymore for guesswork.
