"the Mooch"

irk miller

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Re: "the Mooch"

carnivorous chicken said:
I guess if you have little understanding about how the government is supposed to function you might think that leaving critical positions unfilled is an accomplishment.
We might need to add The Freedom Caucus to the question...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/08/28/harvey-shows-the-anti-government-crowds-utter-hypocrisy/?nid&utm_term=.76ba2b5f90a1
 

irk miller

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As for Confederate memorials, maybe we should take a cue from the Bulgarians...

 

carnivorous chicken

Active Member
Re: "the Mooch"

irk miller said:
We might need to add The Freedom Caucus to the question...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/08/28/harvey-shows-the-anti-government-crowds-utter-hypocrisy/?nid&utm_term=.76ba2b5f90a1
Absolutely. Ted Cruz's opposition to government aid that he so eloquently opposed during Sandy has vanished now that his home state is affected.
 

Tune-A-Fish

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Re: "the Mooch"

farmer92 said:
What exactly has this Trump "movement" done for America that was beneficial?

I haven't seen too much improvement from where I sit, but I'm on the outside looking in.

What would you describe the Trump movement as?

Just wondering how someone who supported the movement see's it.
Exposed a mountain of corruption amongst them "all" and has created a political awareness you will never see again in my lifetime for sure, if Hillary would of won... nothing but crickets and status quo.

We will never be silenced again.


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Tune-A-Fish

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Re: "the Mooch"

carnivorous chicken said:
I've been asking that first question here since he was elected, and nobody seems able to answer it. Trump has taken credit for the economy and jobs, but the economy is still reflected Obama-era policy, and jobs as well (despite the claim of some pundits that these are Trump accomplishments). Emboldened white nationalists and racists? Some people would herald those as accomplishments -- but not me or likely most people here. Created an environment ripe for (literally physically) attacking POC and other minorities? Again, some people might find that an accomplishment, but not many people here. Set back American diplomacy with Europe, Mexico, and just about everywhere else and threatened North Korea with belligerence? I guess if you have little understanding about how the government is supposed to function you might think that leaving critical positions unfilled is an accomplishment. Ah... I've got one. He's accomplished the most turnarounds, firings, dismissals and resignations of cabinet and other important positions. So there's that. He hasn't engineered the complete collapse of the economy or the government, so there's that too. American institutions seem to be holding up despite his desire to work around them, that's an accomplishment.

But really, I'm interested in hearing this list of accomplishments because, clearly, I'm an idiotic naysayer. So let's have 'em.
You are completely brainwashed.


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farmer92

Member
Re: "the Mooch"

Tune-A-Fish said:
Exposed a mountain of corruption amongst them "all" and has created a political awareness you will never see again in my lifetime for sure, if Hillary would of won... nothing but crickets and status quo.

We will never be silenced again.


Sent from my iPhone using DO THE TON
I though the corruption was pretty blatant personally, but i concur that he has helped raised political awareness.

If i may, i'd like to offer 2 similar anecdotes from our past elections in canada and quebec.

First in quebec:
The liberal party had many corruption scandals, plus the "printemps rouge" student protests. So at the next election many who would have voted for them in the past changed to either the quebecois party or the C.A.Q.
This led to the quebecois party being given a minority out of protest mostly.
They did so badly, that when they held the next election trying to secure a majority, they were crushed, completely. Liberal majority.

Second, canada 2011:
People must have been sick of the constant liberal/conservative stupidity because many more people voted ndp, for a slim conservative majority. At the end of this, people were so sick of the conservatives that many people who wanted to vote ndp voted liberal just to be sure that the conservatives would lose. Outcome, liberal majority.


You may be asking "what the hell does that have to do with the good ol' U.S. Of A. ?"

My point is that if trump can't get his shit together, and he runs again in 2020, he will not only lose, but be crushed, overwhelmingly.
 

carnivorous chicken

Active Member
Re: "the Mooch"

Tune-A-Fish© said:
You are completely brainwashed.
Totes, I am completely brainwashed.

So help me out here, what's so great? What's he accomplished? I just want a couple things. You can't seem to provide any except that I'm brainwashed, which -- I'll be honest here boo -- sounds a little like projection.

The whole "he's-exposed-a-mountain-of-corruption" is rich, given the fact that he's using his office to enrich himself and is currently under investigation.

I know you don't read much (at all?) because, you know, all the news is fake, but here's a little of what you missed this past week. Felix Sater, one of Trump's business buddies, wrote to Michael Cohen, Trump's lawyer, during the campaign and promised to engineer a real estate deal in Russia with Putin that would get Putin on Trump's side and help him win the election. Trump made a campaign-style stop in Houston, in which he praised the crowds (many of whom were actually protesting his appearance) but didn't once mention the deaths due to the storm. He also said the storm and people's actions were "wonderful to watch." He has also ratcheted up rhetoric with North Korea, and after N Korea claimed it tested an H-bomb (likely false), Trump laid into South Korea and threatened to withdraw from a long-term trade agreement. I know you think this is all great stuff, boo, but help me understand why.
 

carnivorous chicken

Active Member
Re: "the Mooch"

farmer92 said:
My point is that if trump can't get his shit together, and he runs again in 2020, he will not only lose, but be crushed, overwhelmingly.
Well, that's if he makes it to 2020. He might. But I'm not holding my breath. He's had 7 months to get his shit together and he's doing the opposite. His approval ratings are so low he would have no chance of winning the next election -- the dems could run a stump and win at this point.

The midterms will be a barometer, but midterms aren't always predictive of national sentiment -- it's a factor, to be sure, but there are also local factors in each election.
 

Tune-A-Fish

BOTM LOSER Proudly Deplorable
Re: "the Mooch"

Dems won't win in 2020 that is impossible and you leftyy's thought you had 2016 in the bag because the Trump was so low in numbers... then the country turned red like the Verizon coverage map LOL... point is, you have no idea what 2020 will bring. I'll vote for the person that will continue to cause the shithouse to run afraid of the people outside.


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teazer

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I must be missing something too. Trump has in fact managed to replace a lot of competent professionals with a bunch of ass kissing idiots in many positions as temporary posts. He has tried to take away health insurance from millions and failed. His approach to the DPRK is childish and like most bullies full of empty threats. His only other option at this stage is to nuke NK and start WW3 and the end of the world. Or back down and start acting like an adult.

The economy looks to be slowing down as does job growth which he has done nothing to change. Nothing. as in not a thing.

Let's look at one example. FoxConn are supposed to be going to build a factory in Kenosha WI which will create an initial 3,000 jobs with the possibility of more. To get that factory built WI has offered a bundle of tax breaks amounting to $3 billion. That doesn't sound like good economics. In addition, they are changing the litigation process just for Foxconn to make it easier for them to fight any complaints/lawsuits. Who is at home there in WI? Did all the adults leave the room?

Draining the swamp? We wish, but it's not happening. He is the ultimate swamp dweller. He just replaced one set of swamp creatures with another set. Swamp draining is not on his agenda anytime soon.
 

irk miller

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teazer said:
FoxConn are supposed to be going to build a factory in Kenosha WI which will create an initial 3,000 jobs with the possibility of more. To get that factory built WI has offered a bundle of tax breaks amounting to $3 billion. That doesn't sound like good economics. In addition, they are changing the litigation process just for Foxconn to make it easier for them to fight any complaints/lawsuits. Who is at home there in WI? Did all the adults leave the room?
You may not be on base here. There are other factors you may not be considering. In the early 90s, BMW built a plant a few miles from my parents' house. South Carolina gave them significant tax breaks, including making the plant and part of the airport a free trade zone. Additionally, they built an inland port a few miles away. In addition to the jobs and training BMW created for the area in their plant, they created thousands of other jobs in the region through the support industries. At least one member here works for an injection molding company that produces parts for BMW. Since the plant opened, Greenville SC has become one of the fastest growing cities in the US. The region has been in a boom for years. Before the plant was built, they had been in depression from the loss of textile jobs. At least 95% of the textile mills closed before 1995. The mill I worked at closed.
The point I'm making is that while FoxConn may be getting tax breaks, the region will still collect tax revenue through real estate appreciation, sales taxes, support industry, etc. Restaurants may see boom. New stores open up. Schools will get more funding and so on.
 

J-Rod10

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Be curious to see the income tax figures on 3,000 jobs yearly. As well as the boom it will create for the area. Machine shops will be doing more business, hire more people, buy new machines. There's more tax revenue. More people with jobs = more people spending money. More tax revenue.

Would like to see, say five years down the road, the tax intake compared to the breaks given.
 

VonYinzer

Active Member
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/11/542844184/despite-fiscal-warning-wisconsin-plans-to-move-ahead-with-foxconn-deal

Pretty good NPR article about the FoxConn deal. End of the day, it really doesn't seem all that wonderful for the residents of Wis. If nothing else the fact that FoxConn won't have to pay income tax seems like a raw deal for the state. And the fact that (as the Repubs are wont to do) they're basically tossing all enviromental concerns to thw wind, I can't say I'd be thrilled if I lived in that state.
 

J-Rod10

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VonYinzer said:
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/11/542844184/despite-fiscal-warning-wisconsin-plans-to-move-ahead-with-foxconn-deal

Pretty good NPR article about the FoxConn deal. End of the day, it really doesn't seem all that wonderful for the residents of Wis. If nothing else the fact that FoxConn won't have to pay income tax seems like a raw deal for the state. And the fact that (as the Repubs are wont to do) they're basically tossing all enviromental concerns to thw wind, I can't say I'd be thrilled if I lived in that state.
That's business. They would have taken their 3,000 jobs elsewhere.

We did the same with a HP center. Several thousand jobs. City has grown by 10K since they moved in, new retail, restaurants, new mall being built. New airport was built to accommodate jets, and has filled up twice as full as the old one was with small aircraft. It was good for the city.
 

irk miller

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This is the problem with the impact estimate: "The estimate focused on the income tax that would be paid by workers at Foxconn because the manufacturer will qualify for a state tax program that exempts it from paying income taxes. It also assumes the facility will hire the maximum number of employees it has projected for the plant: 13,000."

As much as I don't like Walker, he's right about the indirect benefits. They made the same arguments against the BMW plant, yet I have seen first hand the indirect benefits that plant created. A major difference with the BMW deal, though, was that they were still required to do preliminary archeological digs and find a place for the artifacts. So the environmental exemptions weren't offered. BMW also made a lot of local farmers rich when they offered millions for properties not worth much more than $200 - $300k before the deal.
 

J-Rod10

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irk miller said:
This is the problem with the impact estimate: "The estimate focused on the income tax that would be paid by workers at Foxconn because the manufacturer will qualify for a state tax program that exempts it from paying income taxes. It also assumes the facility will hire the maximum number of employees it has projected for the plant: 13,000."

As much as I don't like Walker, he's right about the indirect benefits. They made the same arguments against the BMW plant, yet I have seen first hand the indirect benefits that plant created. A major difference with the BMW deal, though, was that they were still required to do preliminary archeological digs and find a place for the artifacts. So the environmental exemptions weren't offered. BMW also made a lot of local farmers rich when they offered millions for properties not worth much more than $200 - $300k before the deal.
HP laid about 1,500 off here last year. The city told them if they didn't retain a certain number of employees, they would lose their tax benefits. They hired 1,500 people within a couple weeks. It was in their agreement they retained a certain number of employees to achieve tax free status in the city. I would assume similar measures have been taken here.

The land bit is a good one. One of my good friends, is up north of $20M since shit started expanding like crazy. Cow pastures, to cold hard cash.
 

teazer

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I totally get the demand side economics and have made that argument myself. The point was that there are better ways to generate jobs for a lot less money and without that environmental impact. And the financial impact study assumed all 13,000 jobs would be created.

For sure WI needs jobs and I love manufacturing jobs - that's my background - and the flow on effect is always underestimated when jobs are lost and over estimated when a new facility comes to town.

And with that particular deal they specifically allow Foxconn to build on or fill any swamp with impunity.
 

J-Rod10

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It seems there isn't a way to build large numbers of jobs quickly, and cheaper. Every state and city is fighting to get these plants. With that, comes the deals.
 

J-Rod10

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VonYinzer said:
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/11/542844184/despite-fiscal-warning-wisconsin-plans-to-move-ahead-with-foxconn-deal

Pretty good NPR article about the FoxConn deal. End of the day, it really doesn't seem all that wonderful for the residents of Wis. If nothing else the fact that FoxConn won't have to pay income tax seems like a raw deal for the state. And the fact that (as the Repubs are wont to do) they're basically tossing all enviromental concerns to thw wind, I can't say I'd be thrilled if I lived in that state.
I took a minute to read this.

I think, if you were a resident of that area that landed a previously unavailable job, you'd be thrilled.
 

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