72 CL350 Build - Done!!!! - lots of pics
- Thread starter WNTITAL
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WNTITAL
Been Around the Block
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/8/12
Okay everyone I need some advice and opinions. Thanks to JRK5892 and his man Tim they were helping me mount my tires the other day. They came across an issue that the person who trued my wheels negated to mention. When he trued the wheels some of the spokes are a little long and some were a little short, meaning they are tight and threaded just not all the way to the bottom of the nipple. The wheels are laced properly and they are trued properly.
So here are my questions, do I just trim down the ones that are too long and then have the tire mounted? Or, do I unlace the wheels and relace them, retrue them making sure that each spoke fits all the way into the nipple without protruding?
Let me know your thoughts. I'm of the thought that since they are laced properly and trued why not just trim the ones that are too long and mount the tires. However, my only concern would be if the nipples become loose for some reason will I have an issue? Here are some pics:
Let me know what you all think!
Okay everyone I need some advice and opinions. Thanks to JRK5892 and his man Tim they were helping me mount my tires the other day. They came across an issue that the person who trued my wheels negated to mention. When he trued the wheels some of the spokes are a little long and some were a little short, meaning they are tight and threaded just not all the way to the bottom of the nipple. The wheels are laced properly and they are trued properly.
So here are my questions, do I just trim down the ones that are too long and then have the tire mounted? Or, do I unlace the wheels and relace them, retrue them making sure that each spoke fits all the way into the nipple without protruding?
Let me know your thoughts. I'm of the thought that since they are laced properly and trued why not just trim the ones that are too long and mount the tires. However, my only concern would be if the nipples become loose for some reason will I have an issue? Here are some pics:
Let me know what you all think!
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/8/12
the issue i see with that is a few things... #1 is you barely have any thread on the one wheel as you are using the wrong size spokes in there, so chances of bending, breaking a spoke is increased as is the wheel coming out of true and you getting a Mad speed wobble… the other issue with that is getting in there and getting a clean cut. Your spokes should not pass the top of the nipple of they will rub though the tire strip and into your tube… even with a small dermal tool that is going to be all but impossible. To be honest the guy that trued the wheel should have noticed this, if he has been doing it this long he should have told you the issue and pointed out the problem, it was very clear. IMO he should re true the wheel free of charge as he really should have told you, “hey this is not right” rather than just giving you back the wheels that are not able to be used. I don’t mess around with spokes… I would unlace and re do it. I know that is really not what you want to do, but it is the correct way… the other issue with cutting the spokes is the wheel will never be able to be trued again. you have so much work into this bike, could you imagine selling it to someone, they go to swap tires and have the wheel trued and they can not because the spokes where hacked off and can not be adjusted… that is all I am saying.. trust me I KNOW it sucks… I have built so many bikes that runs you into issues like this… but do it right man. Hell on my Harley I put the whole trans in (after having to remove the entire drive line… I had to go through $200 in gaskets and about 10 hours of time to open it for just one .50 cent o ring… it sucks but it is the right way to do it is all… unless someone on here knows something I don’t (and there is a good chance) I have never heard of cutting spokes that are sticking though the nipple to make them work… I have heard of sanding 1 or maybe 2 that break the top surface of the nipple but never having to cut them down and then sand them smooth… we do have a lot of old school cats on here though that may know different… but I worry about how little thread is in the one wheel as well as how much sticks out of the other, to me it is a safety thing.
the issue i see with that is a few things... #1 is you barely have any thread on the one wheel as you are using the wrong size spokes in there, so chances of bending, breaking a spoke is increased as is the wheel coming out of true and you getting a Mad speed wobble… the other issue with that is getting in there and getting a clean cut. Your spokes should not pass the top of the nipple of they will rub though the tire strip and into your tube… even with a small dermal tool that is going to be all but impossible. To be honest the guy that trued the wheel should have noticed this, if he has been doing it this long he should have told you the issue and pointed out the problem, it was very clear. IMO he should re true the wheel free of charge as he really should have told you, “hey this is not right” rather than just giving you back the wheels that are not able to be used. I don’t mess around with spokes… I would unlace and re do it. I know that is really not what you want to do, but it is the correct way… the other issue with cutting the spokes is the wheel will never be able to be trued again. you have so much work into this bike, could you imagine selling it to someone, they go to swap tires and have the wheel trued and they can not because the spokes where hacked off and can not be adjusted… that is all I am saying.. trust me I KNOW it sucks… I have built so many bikes that runs you into issues like this… but do it right man. Hell on my Harley I put the whole trans in (after having to remove the entire drive line… I had to go through $200 in gaskets and about 10 hours of time to open it for just one .50 cent o ring… it sucks but it is the right way to do it is all… unless someone on here knows something I don’t (and there is a good chance) I have never heard of cutting spokes that are sticking though the nipple to make them work… I have heard of sanding 1 or maybe 2 that break the top surface of the nipple but never having to cut them down and then sand them smooth… we do have a lot of old school cats on here though that may know different… but I worry about how little thread is in the one wheel as well as how much sticks out of the other, to me it is a safety thing.
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/8/12
Well, at first I thought the hub might be offset from center, but I think there is way to much difference for that. I went back and looked at your other pics, and it looks like the lacing "pattern" is correct, not sure if it is possible to actually have it otherwise. The one pic of the rear looks like the outside spokes, (that is, the spokes that come through the hub from the inside and cross outside of the other spokes) are bending, as if they have to be pulled to the center line of the rim on order to pass through the hole. Looks like all the outside spokes on both sides do this, but it may just be the photo. Is it in any way possible the inner and outer spokes are backwards? Based on your obvious skill, it seems a wild long shot, but I cant think of anything else. It is possible to have all the spokes "leaning" one way too tight, and the opposite leaning ones too loose, but that results in two in a row too long, and then two in a row too short, then two long, then two short etc. If the rim is off to on side as mentioned first, you get a long, short, long,short long . . . pattern, but it would require a LOT of offset to get so much deviation in spoke engagement. Put a straight edge on the rim and check how far the hub is where the spokes pass through. Obviously should be very close to the same on both sides. Within a 1/16" it is definitely not the problem.
Maybe take out an outside spoke just to check. If that can not be done, it looks like the "short" spokes have plenty of room to be free of the rim by spinning the nipple off. You may be able to prove this to be or not be the trouble if you can get one spoke out. Obviously the ones with the "greater than 90 degree" bend are the outside spokes.
Regardless, there is unquestionably a problem that needs solving and correcting. The long spokes could be cut as suggested, but it looks like the short ones are REALLY short, and I would be very concerned that there is not enough thread engagement. No doubt you noticed that the nipples are counter bored very significantly so the threaded portion of the spoke is concealed and protected when proper;y installed, so there are probably only a few threads actually engaged.
For the record, I have built quite a lot of wheels, ( I have 10 bare hubs on my bench as I write this, yes motorcycle hubs) and have never seen this problem without the spokes being clearly wrong. I lace up the wheel, throw it on a stand and spin the nipples almost to the top with a flat blade screwdriver. then go round and round until the spoke nearly contacts the driver. Most wheels are getting to be snug by then, and most times surprisingly close to true, making the actual truing and tightening a breeze. I do an fairly rare occasions have to grind down the odd too "long spoke, but 1/16" too long would be major, and there is usually evidence of some rim or hub issue causing the over-engagement.nothing like your situation.
Hope this helps. Your bike looks fantastic, I'm really enjoying your build!
best
John
Well, at first I thought the hub might be offset from center, but I think there is way to much difference for that. I went back and looked at your other pics, and it looks like the lacing "pattern" is correct, not sure if it is possible to actually have it otherwise. The one pic of the rear looks like the outside spokes, (that is, the spokes that come through the hub from the inside and cross outside of the other spokes) are bending, as if they have to be pulled to the center line of the rim on order to pass through the hole. Looks like all the outside spokes on both sides do this, but it may just be the photo. Is it in any way possible the inner and outer spokes are backwards? Based on your obvious skill, it seems a wild long shot, but I cant think of anything else. It is possible to have all the spokes "leaning" one way too tight, and the opposite leaning ones too loose, but that results in two in a row too long, and then two in a row too short, then two long, then two short etc. If the rim is off to on side as mentioned first, you get a long, short, long,short long . . . pattern, but it would require a LOT of offset to get so much deviation in spoke engagement. Put a straight edge on the rim and check how far the hub is where the spokes pass through. Obviously should be very close to the same on both sides. Within a 1/16" it is definitely not the problem.
Maybe take out an outside spoke just to check. If that can not be done, it looks like the "short" spokes have plenty of room to be free of the rim by spinning the nipple off. You may be able to prove this to be or not be the trouble if you can get one spoke out. Obviously the ones with the "greater than 90 degree" bend are the outside spokes.
Regardless, there is unquestionably a problem that needs solving and correcting. The long spokes could be cut as suggested, but it looks like the short ones are REALLY short, and I would be very concerned that there is not enough thread engagement. No doubt you noticed that the nipples are counter bored very significantly so the threaded portion of the spoke is concealed and protected when proper;y installed, so there are probably only a few threads actually engaged.
For the record, I have built quite a lot of wheels, ( I have 10 bare hubs on my bench as I write this, yes motorcycle hubs) and have never seen this problem without the spokes being clearly wrong. I lace up the wheel, throw it on a stand and spin the nipples almost to the top with a flat blade screwdriver. then go round and round until the spoke nearly contacts the driver. Most wheels are getting to be snug by then, and most times surprisingly close to true, making the actual truing and tightening a breeze. I do an fairly rare occasions have to grind down the odd too "long spoke, but 1/16" too long would be major, and there is usually evidence of some rim or hub issue causing the over-engagement.nothing like your situation.
Hope this helps. Your bike looks fantastic, I'm really enjoying your build!
best
John
WNTITAL
Been Around the Block
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/8/12
Thanks for the response John.
I think at this point I'm going to sleep on it one more night and make my determination on what I'm going to do tomorrow. I have alot of time and money invested in this project and want to make sure it's done right. This bike is for me and don't ever plan on selling it so I want to make sure it's done the way I do all my stuff.
Worse case I have to buy new spokes, what's another couple hundred bucks at this point? Then some more polishing. My favorite!!!!
More to come . . .
Thanks for the response John.
I think at this point I'm going to sleep on it one more night and make my determination on what I'm going to do tomorrow. I have alot of time and money invested in this project and want to make sure it's done right. This bike is for me and don't ever plan on selling it so I want to make sure it's done the way I do all my stuff.
Worse case I have to buy new spokes, what's another couple hundred bucks at this point? Then some more polishing. My favorite!!!!
More to come . . .
WNTITAL
Been Around the Block
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/11/12
Joe - I may take you up on that. I'll decide tomorrow. Thanks again for your advice. Maybe you can help me finish it off once I get these wheels sorted out. I'll need help with the forks and such. Always better to have two sets of hands when doing those. Thanks again.
Joe - I may take you up on that. I'll decide tomorrow. Thanks again for your advice. Maybe you can help me finish it off once I get these wheels sorted out. I'll need help with the forks and such. Always better to have two sets of hands when doing those. Thanks again.
WNTITAL
Been Around the Block
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/11/12
Well, I did a little more investigating on my wheels. Here is what I found out.
The Bad(both wheels):
The kit that I have is a universal kit. Not specific to my wheels. Bummer! and F**K!
The Good(Front):
While although it's not a specific kit for my wheels, the spokes are the right size. At least from a diameter perspective.
They are all threaded 3/4 of the way into each nipple.
None of them are sticking through the nipples.
The offset is the same as another CL350 wheel I have.
The distance from he edge of the hub to the wheel edge is equal all the way around. It is also the same distance on the other wheel I have.
The are laced correctly.
The are true.
The Bad(Front):
I couldn't find anything at this point.
The Bad(Rear):
The kit is not specific to the wheel.
The spokes stick through almost ever nipple. Some are long and some are just right.
The Good(Rear):
The spokes are not to short.
They are laced correctly.
They are true.
The offset is correct.
Since I don't feel that the front's an issue, I'm just going to leave it the way it is. The rear however, is a different story. Since alot of the spokes stick through the nipples I haven't quite decided how I'm going to deal with them. I know most people have said to not just grind them down but I'm still waiting for a call back from one of my mechanic friends and I'm also waiting to hear back from the guy that trued them for me.
Here is what else I found out.
When my friend and I took one of the factory wheels out and took out a spoke from each wheel, this is what we found. The spokes are about a 1/4in shorter than the ones I have but the nipples that go with them are also shorter then the ones I have. My spokes are around 6in. long. The factory ones are about 5 3/4. The nipples on the ones I have are about an inch long where as the factory ones are about 3/4 in long. Also, the factory spokes only thread into the factory nipples about the same as the ones I have on the front wheel. The factory nipples are also not threaded all the way through like the ones I have. The first part of the factory nipples have NO threads. So the factory spokes actually have less threads into the nipples than the ones I have.
So I want to hear from you all. What do you think I should do at this point? Joe I alread know your thoughts but now knowing a little more what do you think?
Well, I did a little more investigating on my wheels. Here is what I found out.
The Bad(both wheels):
The kit that I have is a universal kit. Not specific to my wheels. Bummer! and F**K!
The Good(Front):
While although it's not a specific kit for my wheels, the spokes are the right size. At least from a diameter perspective.
They are all threaded 3/4 of the way into each nipple.
None of them are sticking through the nipples.
The offset is the same as another CL350 wheel I have.
The distance from he edge of the hub to the wheel edge is equal all the way around. It is also the same distance on the other wheel I have.
The are laced correctly.
The are true.
The Bad(Front):
I couldn't find anything at this point.
The Bad(Rear):
The kit is not specific to the wheel.
The spokes stick through almost ever nipple. Some are long and some are just right.
The Good(Rear):
The spokes are not to short.
They are laced correctly.
They are true.
The offset is correct.
Since I don't feel that the front's an issue, I'm just going to leave it the way it is. The rear however, is a different story. Since alot of the spokes stick through the nipples I haven't quite decided how I'm going to deal with them. I know most people have said to not just grind them down but I'm still waiting for a call back from one of my mechanic friends and I'm also waiting to hear back from the guy that trued them for me.
Here is what else I found out.
When my friend and I took one of the factory wheels out and took out a spoke from each wheel, this is what we found. The spokes are about a 1/4in shorter than the ones I have but the nipples that go with them are also shorter then the ones I have. My spokes are around 6in. long. The factory ones are about 5 3/4. The nipples on the ones I have are about an inch long where as the factory ones are about 3/4 in long. Also, the factory spokes only thread into the factory nipples about the same as the ones I have on the front wheel. The factory nipples are also not threaded all the way through like the ones I have. The first part of the factory nipples have NO threads. So the factory spokes actually have less threads into the nipples than the ones I have.
So I want to hear from you all. What do you think I should do at this point? Joe I alread know your thoughts but now knowing a little more what do you think?
WNTITAL
Been Around the Block
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/11/12
Well, I heard back from my mechanic friend as well as Buchanan's tech support. They both came back and said grinding the spokes down is okay. So grinding it is! They just saved me over $200! I'm back on track to get this thing done!
More to come. . .
Well, I heard back from my mechanic friend as well as Buchanan's tech support. They both came back and said grinding the spokes down is okay. So grinding it is! They just saved me over $200! I'm back on track to get this thing done!
More to come. . .
WNTITAL
Been Around the Block
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/17/12
Also, I want to give a shout out to JRK5892. He is local to my area in northern Illinois and does PC and mounting & balancing of wheels. With his help along with his partner Tim they did a great job on mounting my wheels & tires and they look amazing. No scratches or marks of any kind! These guys are good and cheap. $65 to mount and balance. Pay that at your local shop. They used Dynabeads in the wheels and the turn around was in essence the same day! I've seen their PC work and if you guys need stuff done and are around the norhtern Illinois area or southern Wisconsin area, I highly recommend them. Good prices, good work and they are gearheads just like most of us!
Also, I want to give a shout out to JRK5892. He is local to my area in northern Illinois and does PC and mounting & balancing of wheels. With his help along with his partner Tim they did a great job on mounting my wheels & tires and they look amazing. No scratches or marks of any kind! These guys are good and cheap. $65 to mount and balance. Pay that at your local shop. They used Dynabeads in the wheels and the turn around was in essence the same day! I've seen their PC work and if you guys need stuff done and are around the norhtern Illinois area or southern Wisconsin area, I highly recommend them. Good prices, good work and they are gearheads just like most of us!
WNTITAL
Been Around the Block
Re: 72 CL350 Build - updated pics and progress 10/17/12
Thanks man! It's getting close. I calculated out the time into the motor. I came up with somewhere around 20 hours give or take. That included cleaning, disassembly, masking, priming, painting and reassembly. I'm happy with it. Thanks again.
Eleganten said:
Thanks man! It's getting close. I calculated out the time into the motor. I came up with somewhere around 20 hours give or take. That included cleaning, disassembly, masking, priming, painting and reassembly. I'm happy with it. Thanks again.
