A little insight into the brand hate debate.

CresentSon

Over 1,000 Posts
Not an implication directed at either side, just an interesting read. Really gives some insight about why we hate the other guys.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/08/21/the-illusion-of-asymmetric-insight/

It is all about asymmetric insight and why our HD vs Metric discussions tend to go all Lord of the Flies. The most interesting part to me is the battle over resources. In the motorcycle world I guess the resource in question would be cool factor. The funny thing is that it isn't even a limited resource.
 
Great read! That kind of thing makes me want to go back to school for psychology. Scary true...they have me figured out...and I thought I was so unique. Ha ha

Cool factor-definitely. And being unique/different, even as a group.
 
And classic...check out the first comment under the article.

Edit: keep reading the comments. They instantly split into two groups and start attacking each other. I'd say that's about as clear as it gets... ::)
 
The concept of 'cool', being undefined and therefore fluidly exclusionary, is the fulcrum for this tribalism.

There is no 'cool' (and, logically, no "uncool").

Crazy
 
Nice link that explains one part of a complex interaction. What it fails to address is the underlying issue of why we like to be with PLMs (People Like Me). We look for things in common to form a connection to a group. That's far more fundamental that asymmetric insight.

It comes from a basic human fear that's linked to survival. Back in the cave days, we needed to know if someone was friend or foe. We needed to learn how to differentiate between the two to avoid getting clubbed over the head by our new friends. Survival in times of limited resources means sharing within our group and away from others who do not belong.

What we tend to do is to unconsciously look for patterns of behavior in others by which we can identify whether they are "like us" and can be trusted or not. In our daily lives we have people at work with whom we have things in common - same department, same style but those same people in a different context have nothing in common with us that is relevant to that new situation.

That's one of many reasons that we compartmentalize our lives.

The same applies to groups of brand X riders. We (insert brand here) riders appreciate the fine qualities of this brand. Their products are well engineered and are a reflection of who we are as people - discerning, strong, exciting (insert other ways we like our brand and what that says about ourselves). People that do not ride Brand X therefore are different to us.

We may be doing that asymmetric thing as we rationalize why they are wrong, but that wasn't where it started and it isn't the emotional driver. What we do in those circumstances is to define ourselves in a certain way that by definition means that others are probably not the same as us and therefore cannot be trusted in our cave.

And the interesting part of all of that is that the whole thing is based on Pattern Recognition. We are continuously looking for patterns of speech or behavior and it is all out of our awareness.

Simple example. Have you ever had a couple of phone conversations or web interactions with a stranger and when you meet them they are nothing like you expected them to be? Happens all the time and every time, without fail, we are surprised that THEY are so different to the way WE expected them to be. As those conversations were taking place, part our brains were data warehousing and checking for patterns.
The brain then builds a mental image of the other person but forgets to tell us that it was doing it or the basis for that image. We don't even know what that image looks like until we meet the OP and they are somehow wrong. They don't match the image that we didn't even know we had created.

That pattern recognition process is a fundamental part of survival of the human species.

Now lay on top of that all the complex social constructs we create, and it's clear that those OPs can't be trusted. They are douche bags that just don't get it, whatever "it" might be.

Now if only those idiots would get a bike like mine, vote the way I do, dress like I do as an individual etc., the world would be a better place ................ :)

Stay sane and keep an open mind.
 
I think you hit on the main underlying point, fear. Most negative actions seem to stem from logical fallacies. Logical fallacies are aided by fear, whether in the form of a direct perceivable threat or the fear of the unknown. In this context the thing to be afraid of is solidarity. So you cling to that thing that the group has coalesced around, and attempt to prove your right to stay in the group by holding the belief the strongest. A form of group synergy pushes the belief far beyond it's roots until the group is mutually supporting an out right falsehood. I would go as far as to say that evil as a concept or force doesn't exist, but that all evil deeds grow out of a logical fallacy.

There are many other mechanisms in our psychology that facilitate this type of misunderstanding gone wild. There is a tendency to focus on the facts that support our belief system at the expense of those in opposition. We tend to subconsciously self hypnotize when we are confronted with negative, and gloss over glaring truths. Meanwhile we focus intently on the positive and blindly accept that which justifies our mistaken beliefs.

Basically we see what we want to see, because it offers us safety and reassurance. Furthermore we create a demon that we can fear, rather than face the true threat which is commonly much more nefarious. Ultimately we need to acknowledge these traits, and occasionally ground ourselves. It is a freeing experience to really look at your fondest beliefs, and try to find the root of why you believe it. If you have good reason, you'll be reassured in the end. If not you'll be rewarded with a more comprehensive understanding of who you are. If we all did that a little more, the world would be a better place.

In any event, that's just my .02 worth of hippie psycho babble.
 
CrescentSon said:
I would go as far as to say that evil as a concept or force doesn't exist, but that all evil deeds grow out of a logical fallacy.

I wouldn't go quite this far, but I agree with the majority of your comments. :) Certainly, some/many evil deeds do grow out of logical fallacies as you suggest.

Well thought out and equally well articulated! :)
 
Hichhkrjo said:
Holy shit, this motorcycle forum just got deep as fuck.

That's the forum in general. When you ask for "deep thinking", you get the best and brightest. And me.

Back to Teazer's point - I love it when people are completely different than what I expect. That means I have basically seen 2 sides of a person: one without any prejudice based on physical traits, and then seeing how the "puzzle" is put together after meeting them. Does that make sense?
 
You see, this is why I come here instead of CafeRacer.net .

Here, you get this every few weeks.
There, you get a new member every few weeks and a new ex-member in short order thereafter because of precisely what is being discussed here.
 
Drewski said:
I wouldn't go quite this far, but I agree with the majority of your comments. :) Certainly, some/many evil deeds do grow out of logical fallacies as you suggest.

The argument can be made both in the philosophic and practical context. Our entire western view of evil stems from a mishld belief by some party. With the Greeks it was huburis, believing one was greater than the gods, that lay at the heart of evil. In Christianity the Devil foolishly belived he was greater than God, and thus deserving of a higher seat. As a result any action traced to the Devil stems from a broken thought process. "Money is the root of all evil" because men falsely believe that it is the ultimate goal, even though you can't take it with you. They pile up bodies to obtain it because they believe it is worth the sacrifice, or that the sacrifice isn't related. Hell, even in Buddhism the desire to hold onto that wich is impermanent is the basis for all suffering, and suffering (or the fear of it) is the basis for evil acts.

On the paractical side, every criminal feels justified in doing what they do because the fabricate some circumstance or belief. Even serial killers develop an inner narrative that allows them to commit terrible acts. It is the system, or society, or some spiritual bias. The rise of the Third Reich was facillitated by a fearful war broken nation clinging to a belief that empowered them (a gross over simplification, I know). Every act that can be considered evil is either prejustified by a errant belief, or a false pattern is created to justify the action. You dig deep enough into even the most aberrant psyche and you will find a lie (self imposed or otherwise) holding the whole thing together.

As far as external forces go, natural disasters, and even man made disaters though horrible cannot be considered 'evil'. They are neuteral due to a lack of motivation or cupability. I can't think of a single act of malice that cannot be traced back to a misconception or partial truth.

Furthermore any of these acts can be traced back to fear. We fear an outcome, so find/create/hold a belief that empowers us against that outcome, and we act on that belief. If the fear is unjustified, than the belief is unjustified, and the act becomes unnecessary. If the unjustified act did harm, than it was an contemptious act based on false information. A misunderstanding gone wrong.
 
I guess Yoda was right. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." We hate what we fear. If the fear is great enough, we will justify doing harm to avoid it. The road to destruction is paved with good intentions.

It comes full circle when you realize that the only defense against fear is understanding, and fear's greatest ally is ignorance.
 
Hmmm...I really, truly fear going 160 MPH on my sportbike, particularly since I am not on the track. So why do I keep doing it?

--Because I embrace and get my power from my fear! My Journey to the Dark Side is complete.

Yoda's got nothin' on me... :D

Alright, now before all of your anger towards me for this leads to hate, back to the regulary scheduled philosphy lesson!
 
"The rational man persists in adapting himself to the world. The irrational man persists in try to adapt the world to him.Therefore all progress depends on the irrational man."G.B.Shaw.So I guess all us irrational crazies are the preferred group-what? Even a solid thinker like Shaw got whammied by the Asymetrical theory.
 
I've been reading the hell out of that site Daniel posted. I should probably pick up the guy's book...

The one article about people being presented with hard info (facts) that shoots down their beliefs, only to have it strengthen them (!!), fascinates me. I suppose that's why I NEVER talk politics...
 
Exactly why I ALWAYS talk politics... and religion, but I am a bit of a masochist.

As long as cooler heads prevail, there are only 3 possible outcomes for me from these conversations. (1)You convince me I'm wrong, and I learn something. (2)You challenge my belief strongly with hard evidence that I have to analyze, and I learn something. (3)You prove yourself to be an ignorant ass, and I learn not to waste anymore time with you.

Now it is possible that I prove myself to be an ignorant ass, but there is nothing for me to learn from that outcome, so it doesn't count. ;)
 
I've found that unless someone is relatively clueless about an issue, it's nigh-on impossible to change people's minds. I don't generally bother anymore; I'm content to know I'm right and the world is wrong. ;D

That's just me though. I like being fairly isolated up here with only my motorcycle providing conversation. She sympathizes with me more often than not.
 
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