A little insight into the brand hate debate.

CrescentSon said:
Personally I believe strongly in a universal morality, and an internal compass that we all have. I don't claim to know it source, learned or inherent, but it is there. Most toddlers know what they did is wrong. I just don't believe in a universal source of evil.
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This.

I have seen first hand examples of both. The "evil" act is usually justified by interpreting it as necessary and just. I believe that we have a natural reflex of morality, but we have developed the mental ability to disregard it and act otherwise. Strangely enough, that which kept us moral in the past was fear, but the more intelligence we gain throughout our evolutionary journey, the more we realize what we feared before, i.e. consequence, is invalid. The only consequence that we are forced to endure anymore are those that are implemented by our own society. There is no more threat of survival, because we ensure it these days to the extent of our scientific and financial abilities.

I believe that on the one hand, open-mindedness is the salvation of the universe. Open-mindedness, however, has become divisive in the fact that we have turned it into a device of entitlement. We are "insert title here" therefore we deserve a break from the rigors that the other guys have to endure because they are not said title.

We are not able to devolve back to the reality where we "know better" unless we are forced to by an act of nature or state of existence. The apocalypse that so many fear in reality is the forced change of that which is comfortable. The reality is however, all positive social and global change has been catalyzed by an abrupt change in the way of day to day life. We adapt by falling back on our inner morality and unifying under the cause of survival and love/compassion for one another. In short, we complicate ourselves into acting against our inner morality. We excuse ourselves from it because we are in our own minds exempt from the things that everyone else is because we are a part of an elite group. "Evil" is the result of a person excusing himself from his inner consciousness. Like it has been said before so eloquently, all acts of evil can be traced back to flawed reason. I believe wholeheartedly in the creedo "As long as it harms none, do what you will". This means emotionally and physically. When you abide by this simple rule, it makes you automatically moral (a morality that all around you can agree on, not the falsified version that puts you into an elitist mindstate).

Very interesting discussion, Thank you for posting this!
 
Excellent perspectives Kiley. I might need some clarification on the entitlement bit. It is true that many will say if you don't see it my way, then your closed minded, but that is demonstrative of a narrow mind. False entitlement is a great threat. I don't think that it undermines the 'salvation of the universe'.

I especially like how you point out that complacency leads to an acceptance of the false premiss.
 
Good thoughts.

I don't believe in an inherently "good" nature in people. I believe good is a taught and learned behaviour.
I've seen it in my life, my kids and grandkids. I believe we are born self-centred. The notion to share or be other-oriented is taught and, hopefully, learned. Some are never taught this and remain self-centred their whole lives.

I do believe in a deep inner yearning for "something". Some would describe it as "meaning" or "purpose".
 
NortonGuy, are you saying that thinking should be abolished as it no longer serves an evolutionary function? I buy into the Zen idea of freeing oneself of suffering by not hanging on to things that are impermanent, but consciousness is nothing if not the catalog of one's existence. We are each a multifaceted creature with three elements to the self that have to be nurtured to live successfully. When the mind (mental, logical, inquisitive), body (physical, tangible, solid), and the spirit (the intangible, emotional, philosophical) are all at ease you have a successful balanced person. Nurture one over the others, and you will be miserable.

And when I refer to spiritual that doesn't have to be religion, and isn't confined to the belief in a soul. In the secular sense it simply is a convenient way to describe emotional health and a acceptance and ease with philosophic pursuit. Meditation, psychological health, metaphysics, or what ever pleases you.

In the east it was called enlightenment, in western psychology, self actualization. Many methods have been proposed, and many names have been given to the pursuit. In every one the goal is harmony. Your mind, the self, is an element of the whole, and has to be considered just as much as any element.

Picture someone obsessed with things,possessions, beauty, and physique at the cost of all else. Unhappy no matter how big their horde is. No matter how well maintained they criticize themselves and others. A common western affliction. We hold onto fleeting things like beauty, accomplishment, and possessions. All cause us torment as they are doomed to fade and tarnish. After all, you can't take it with you.

Or those who put faith into a box, pursuing an acceptance of the "truth" while ignoring the world around them. Without considering the validity of their belief, they saunter on in a haze blind to all else. Whether the belief is in a deity, a light, an energy, or nothing at all, the person misses the possibilities in this life obsessed with what does or does not come next. You can no more "feel" your way through the universe than you can talk yourself into loving someone that you should logically be compatible with in spite of no higher connection.

And finally the person who believes they can think their way out of anything. Logic and "human achievement" are the source. It is laughable to think that math can give definition to the universe it can barely describe. Humanity is no more than an atom, on a gain of sand, in a desert in a universe full of planets with their own deserts. The greatest technological tool ever conceived to connect and communicate was brought to fruition in our life time. We have an unprecedented opportunity to share ideas and bring the world together, and what do we do. We use it to look at videos of shots to the nuts, kitten bloopers, and porn.

To be whole we have to look inside and discover what our needs truly are. That is the only way we can realize that those around us have the same needs. We have to acknowledge that we are all on the same journey, esoteric or otherwise. It is our duty to strive to understand, keep ourselves healthy, and simply allow ourselves to be happy. Mind, body, and spirit.
 
We have some very intelectual, eloquent people on this site. I have met some, and look forward to meeting some of the others in this thread. Crescent I hope both you and I get to barber this year as I think sitting by the fire having a beer with you could make for some intersting conversation. Well written my friends. I won't even bother trying to add to this. Just wanted to share I enjoyed reading the thoughts, and it made me think as well.

Cheers,

Maritime
 
I think that Nortonguy was addressing the "I think therefore I am" philosophy where people get tied up indie their own thoughts and lose track of the larger reality in which they actually live versus teh construct they.. well constructed mentally.

Certainly we need to ground our thoughts from time to time and test our hypotheses but that is how we overcome what he describes as "average" or more appropriately "the norm". After all, Normal is a statistical term. A basic function of human behavior is that we have a certain need to fit in, to be like others, to get rid of the fenders and paint checkers etc. Some think that fitting in makes them cool and others just see it as a way not to stand out and a way to avoid being picked on. And the rest of us tend to do it because it's a survival technique.

When we look and act like the rest of the crowd, we are less likely to stand out and less likely to be picked on. When I travel overseas, I try to fit in as best i can for that reason. If I blend in, I am less likely to be mugged or pickpocketed and more likely to be able to go places that other may not be able to go. That only goes so far of course, but looking like you belong is an essential skill we learn in life.

But back to Norton's other point about thought. Humans have a lot in common with primates and one of the few things that differentiate us is our thinking ability. We have far larger brains in relation to our body mass that pretty much anything else. Whether that's because a higher form of life a.k.a God made that happen or we simply evolved, is far beyond our level of comprehension which is where the word faith comes form. It's something we believe that cannot be proven.

But that's not where I'm going with this. We do appear to have an inherent internal sense of right and wrong and I cannot tell if that comes from our ability to watch reactions to things we do and others do and we build a huge pattern recognition database, or if it comes from somewhere else.

Given that we have free will to choose to do good or not, then we also recognize that the opposite of doing good is often known as evil. Does evil exist as a force in its own right? Probably not, but it is the opposite of what we know to be right. The real question is why do some individuals choose to do things that they know to be wrong? Is it because their personal greed overcomes their morality or is it because their value system has been corrupted as they grew up? Di they learn that bad behavior gives them some sort of "reward" that doing "good" doesn't and how did they develop to the point that "wrong" actions became their "norm"?

Religion suggests that Evil is the absence of God and they are correct if they mean the opposite of Good. Where a religion describes their God in terms of actions that are not what normal human behavior would suggest is good or normal, they are ascribing Evil behavior to a symbol of Good and that leads to an interesting dichotomy of perspectives. God is Good and God does things that we believe are Evil or encourages behavior like stoning a woman to death to "pay" for a bad deed on someone's part. That is really unusual thinking and reflects years of a custom and years of certain people being in power and wanting to stay in power. And that is the root of all evil.

The Love of money is evil because it is a lust for power over other people and that power lust is a desire to control other people's lives. There is a fine line between seeking a position of authority to do what you believe is good and a lust for power to control people. The former is good, but sometimes misdirected, and the latter is evil. Two sides of the same thing.

To some of us, Republicans dictating how women's health issues should be treated, is evil and to some of us it may seem to be good and well intentioned.

It all comes down to how we see the world or more to the point how we think about the world. And that is something we can do, to think and to question others statements and actions - unemotionally and intelligently. One of teh hardest things for us to do is to think clearly, because we don't have enough facts. there are few TV news shows that present facts. they all present some interpretation of facts and in some cases distort those to the point that they are often wrong or at least misleading.

MSNBC puts a very pro big D Democratic spin on much of the news, and their philosophy is that they come form a perspective of the common good. FOX is the opposite end of the spectrum and often distorts news and presents opinion and half truth as the news. Their justification or rationale is that they want republicans to rule, because republicans will take us back to the good old days. That is an appeal to our individualism.

The point is not that either is evil or that thinking is wrong, but that we need more complete and unbiased information in order to think through the complex issues. Thinking is good and necessary for us as individuals and for us as a group to continue to evolve and develop.

Thinking without enough data is what Norton guy was referring to, where we concoct some really odd answers based on incorrect and incomplete data. We can never have all the data or know any of the outcomes before an event takes place.

What we can do is to think about the issues and question the data and think about the other side of any argument. None of us exists in a vacuum. We live together and share the same air and water and other resources. It's or right to enjoy them and our duty to protect them for future generations. All rights carry corresponding responsibilities.

Think well and think often.
 
CrescentSon:
"To be whole we have to look inside and discover what our needs truly are. That is the only way we can realize that those around us have the same needs. We have to acknowledge that we are all on the same journey, esoteric or otherwise. It is our duty to strive to understand, keep ourselves healthy, and simply allow ourselves to be happy. Mind, body, and spirit."

When I brake it down, my needs are quite basic really. The world around me to provoke me to think; something to do with my hands; a measure of health; food and water; family and friends to love, inspire and push me to think beyond myself and the world I can see, taste and touch. All else is a bonus, and I have a lot to be thankful for.


Teazer:
"It all comes down to how we see the world or more to the point how we think about the world. And that is something we can do, to think and to question others statements and actions - unemotionally and intelligently. One of teh hardest things for us to do is to think clearly, because we don't have enough facts. there are few TV news shows that present facts. they all present some interpretation of facts and in some cases distort those to the point that they are often wrong or at least misleading."

"The point is not that either is evil or that thinking is wrong, but that we need more complete and unbiased information in order to think through the complex issues. Thinking is good and necessary for us as individuals and for us as a group to continue to evolve and develop."

The way I see it, we all tend to think we see "from the top of the mountain." The problem is that no one really sees with all facts or perspectives. Aside from God, that is. :) Every view is skewed to a small or large extent. My opinion is that all media has an agenda to promote. Stated or otherwise. Some we will agree with and gravitate to. Others we will disagree with and oppose.


Teazer:
"Think well and think often."

The best suggestion of all!

Thanks for all your ideas and input! This is good!

It will be wonderful to "tip a few" with you boys (and girls?) some day! 8) I've got the 2nd round! :D
 
You can't have good without evil.

You can't have light without dark.

You can't have hot without cold.

You can't have white without black.

But there are infinite shades of grey in between. We are ALL "shades of grey". ;)
 
The only way to know who I am and where I am is to investigate who I'm not and where I dont want to be.The only way to do that is to investigate the things I am not and places I dont want to be.The only way to do that is to have balls bigger than b-bs and a very open mind.Evil-good? Outside the context of organized religion a meaningless discussion as all else in the real world we live in is relative,please review Einsteins Relativity Theory if ur an unbeliever at this point..How do u have a moral compass when in the real world everything is North of where u are.Bad people are capable of good things and good people are capable of heinous crimes--all relative.Its a journey,we dont pick the ship,captain,crew, or fellow passengers.The only way to know u are there is when u aint somewhere else--thus the balls bigger than b-bs to get along wherever u are.Heaven-Hell? "Id rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints."Billy Joel.Whoa-this is a great thread-ya'll keep it up.bj
 
Uh, relativity theory talks about the apparent velocity of light in relative to the point of reference, not morality. :D
 
"Light" =wisdom.Einstein used physics to talk about the natural world and metaphor to talk about the other world.The CERN particle accelerator is chasing the Higgs boson, a particle so small that it only exists in the minds of quantum physicists.Yet when they "see" a perturbation in the datum,they will assume they found "it", whatever it is. Maybe "God" is the Higgs boson????? The mind is a great thing.And there is always the latest observation that the act of measurement of a thing affects the outcome-wow.bj
 
I think that last observation has been known since the '80's.

The cool thing about physics is that when you get to a certain level, it is *so* bizarre and *so* arbitrary seeming that it brings up the question as to whether it could work any other way, even in theory.

WHen hard science creates philosophy... That is a cool thing.

...of course, maybe I've just been reading too much Carl Sagan again. XD
 
or another manifestation of Schrödinger's cat trying to co-exist in two universes
 
Damn!!! I got lost somewhere in the misty universe! I race therefore I live. In between I wait.
 
Most people today do not look for the right answers to the questions that we have been asking since we first developed a higher level of abstract thought , rather they look for the questions that are going to give them the answer they already have, all other answers and information will be disregarded in favour of an answer that supports what they already believe, hence we are less enlightened than our distant ancestors who were more open to new ways of thinking and behaving, most of us have closed minds at varying degrees. For example we accept Christian values and morals as the norm even if some of us do not consider themselves Christians in practice, yet for our ancestors from a culture not related to the Jewish faith such as Celtic and Germanic pagans the acceptance of not just Christian belief but the different outlook on morality was a huge step.
Our brand tribalism is basically an acceptance of on faith over another, it becomes fundamentalist hatred when we become more insular and refuse to accept any deviation from what we consider the norm, any form of contradiction, criticism or open examination is seen as a threat and is treated as such, some organisations and religions refuse to debate at all and become more entrenched and radical, as can be seen by what is happening in Islam, Marxist and far right groups, open minds and open debate keep things interesting, as the French say The more things change the more they stay the same.
 
Frog said:
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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You know, for such an "advanced" people, we really haven't "changed" all that much. A lot of truth in the above statement.
 
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