540cc Honda 360 Engine

[mydlyfkryzis]

Please elaborate on "art school in the highest degree" and "the rules of aesthetics".

I know I didn't need college to know what I like....I assume a class on Aesthetics might explain why you like or dislike it......

If your Aesthetic is ill or weak, talk to the doctor! Bert Jan, Dr. of Aesthetics....

 

[Rich Ard]

Sorry, man, you're not qualified to know what you like. I only went to art school for three years so I can venture an opinion but it's not warrantied.

 

[crazypj]

Cafe Racer looks better on a patch

It's MINE - F U
would be a pretty good patch/sticker ;D

Just fitting shorter forks would probably work, the oil pick up is towards front of motor

 

[Bert Jan]

Please elaborate on "art school in the highest degree" and "the rules of aesthetics".

haha sure, i'll bite. i'll talk to the builder, (its hard for me to talk in english in second person)

You know, there is a vast majority of people who are interested in bikes. For some reason, a few builders are very popular by that group, and the most are not. I will use bikes from Wrenchmonkees and Deus as examples. For some reason, those bikes work. Every single time. You don't know why, but they just do. Offcourse, you might not like the looks, but they always make them balanced and overall good looking. In very short: That reason, that balance is called
aesthetics. There are rules for it. I'm not saying everything not in those rules is wack, but i mean that those guidelines are found in every build on a pro level, such as WM or Deus. All parts are meticulously added or removed to get the best 'overall' look.

I bet that a lot of us have the same bikes in our 'favorite bikes' folder. Thats because of the aestetics of those bikes. When its balanced, people like it. its like eye candy. shit just fits. thats aestetics. lines, curves, pieces at the right angles at the right place. If you dont know what i mean by now, you'll never will. I suggest you educate yourself on it then, because it's a very important piece in the puzzle.

Now, art school in the highest degree - I've got a master in industrial design and functionality - i'm an engineer. Not saying i know all about building bikes, but i sure know why i dont like things if i do, and i can also tell why. That helps me in my own builds. If i dont like it, i know why, so i can do it again properly, until it suits my opinion. It also helps me explain why i dont like things, like the bike in question. Its about questioning every single move and only doing it if its right, not if its the best option. fuck second hand solutions. think twice, cut once.

Now, construction wise there a some things strange aswell.

In this particular build, (to me, it looks they went all out and did their best) are to many things not right. A full custom frame with the wrong angle in the steerertube.
I mean, what the fuck? Please educate on rake and trail before doing a frame if you decide to build a custom frame. It would have cost you 3 hours max and your frame would be A LOT better handling.

The rearsets. Serious? again, full custom frame and to me it looks they forgot the rearsets and came up with this bullshit. unbelievable. If you want to play on this level its fine, but do it proper, and dont cry if somebody sees the halfassed solutions for problems you encountered because you did not do it right in the first time - and that bugs me. The constuction of the welds and such are clean, no doubt. Heim joints, well not my choice but alas.. its just a shame that some parts are very well engineered and some parts are shit. That makes it a mashup and the negative parts weigh heavier than the positive ones. When you'd put a little more time i some parts of the build, it would have been a LOT better.

Do i need to elaborate more? I know what i'm talking about this time

 

[Bert Jan]

I know I didn't need college to know what I like....

Haha, exactly my point. Everybody has that eye. We all know what we like, but we can't always explain why. "i just know it without going to college blabla". Sure you do! We all know what we like.
The problem however, is getting a hold of that emotion. Understanding it and use it to make better (in this case) bikes or parts. The art is to translate the emotion into the bike, making it 'right'. When all parts are balanced and the colors are nice, you like it. You don't know why, (you even dont need college for it!) you 'just like it'. You like it, because the aestetics of the bike are the ones you prefer. Everybosy has other preferences about it, but there's some overlap. For example, Wrenchmonkees, CRD and Deus (and other succesfull builders) are right in that tight overlap. Junior Burell, FunJimmy, Jeff Godfrey (garagebuilds) and Ringo are pretty good at it aswell. You either understand me, or you think i'm talking bullshit. It's your loss in that case....

 

[Bert Jan]

Sorry, man, you're not qualified to know what you like. I only went to art school for three years so I can venture an opinion but it's not warrantied.

It has nothing to do with qualification. You either have it or you don't. Study will improve your feeling and the way you communicate it, but if you dont understand what im trying to explain, you never will. If you say you like the bike and like the way it looks, please explain to me why on the same level i explained why i dont like it. im curious to read what you come up with.

 

[Rich Ard]

I think you have a couple of good points. I disagree entirely with you as far as the aesthetic rules go - and that an engineering background gives you the rule book. My dad has a masters in mechanical engineering and his living room is hideous. :

I agree that there are some things that the builder is probably going to regret.

Edit : I wrote this before you were done with your series of posts. I'll come back to this.

 

[Bert Jan]

I think you have a couple of good points. I disagree entirely with you as far as the aesthetic rules go - and that an engineering background gives you the rule book. My dad has a masters in mechanical engineering and his living room is hideous. :

I agree that there are some things that the builder is probably going to regret.

Edit : I wrote this before you were done with your series of posts. I'll come back to this.

just want to get to 100 for the dcc discount man....

 

[Rich Ard]

I'm going to be brief, since we're already jacking this fellow's thread.

I bet that a lot of us have the same bikes in our 'favorite bikes' folder. Thats because of the aestetics of those bikes. When its balanced, people like it. its like eye candy. shit just fits. thats aestetics. lines, curves, pieces at the right angles at the right place. If you dont know what i mean by now, you'll never will. I suggest you educate yourself on it then, because it's a very important piece in the puzzle.

I think that you'll find that there are as many people who find those bikes distasteful. I will use Deus Ex's bikes as an example - I think they do half ass work, and though the parts are in the right place, they could do something well and instead they do it pretty, and I don't care for it. For that matter, there are any number of pop-artist-cum-motorcycle-builders who make stuff that I find distasteful, but damn if they don't have a huge audience for it. Are their fans wrong?

Now, art school in the highest degree - I've got a master in industrial design and functionality - i'm an engineer. Not saying i know all about building bikes, but i sure know why i dont like things if i do, and i can also tell why. That helps me in my own builds. If i dont like it, i know why, so i can do it again properly, until it suits my opinion. It also helps me explain why i dont like things, like the bike in question. Its about questioning every single move and only doing it if its right, not if its the best option. fuck second hand solutions. think twice, cut once.

Again - in any field, there will be more than one controlling aesthetic movement. I think that you fool yourself if you think that every decision you make in the composition of an object is based on a logic so carefully composed.

In this particular build, (to me, it looks they went all out and did their best) are to many things not right. A full custom frame with the wrong angle in the steerertube.
I mean, what the fuck? Please educate on rake and trail before doing a frame if you decide to build a custom frame. It would have cost you 3 hours max and your frame would be A LOT better handling.

The rearsets. Serious? again, full custom frame and to me it looks they forgot the rearsets and came up with this bullshit. unbelievable. If you want to play on this level its fine, but do it proper, and dont cry if somebody sees the halfassed solutions for problems you encountered because you did not do it right in the first time - and that bugs me. The constuction of the welds and such are clean, no doubt. Heim joints, well not my choice but alas.. its just a shame that some parts are very well engineered and some parts are shit. That makes it a mashup and the negative parts weigh heavier than the positive ones. When you'd put a little more time i some parts of the build, it would have been a LOT better.

Spot on here, and I drew you out hoping that you would elaborate on this in particular. Cyclhed - you guys have put a ton of work into this thing, but there are a couple of decisions you have made (and could still un-make!) that would make this bike a hell of a lot more rideable, and with that punched out engine, I know I would want to tear up some asphalt on it.

 

[Sonreir]

Really? You guys are gonna clutter up this build thread with this shit?

 

[mydlyfkryzis]

Not fair Rich Ard...Beat me to the punch....

Bert,

I like what I like.....Being a Mechanical Engineer, I like function over form....Good form is nice, but not at the expense of function. Most of the customs you see are form over function. I prefer a comfortable bike, with good ergonomics and good handling. Lowered forks, no braces, the minimalist look many go for, are just not pleasing to my eye.

There are elements of this bike that I like, and elements I don't. No rules. Rear Sets? I hate them. you can't ride comfortably with them. BTW, I don't like sports bikes and their crouched riding position either. I want my feet under me and sitting upright.

So you think he needs rearsets, I think he should have conventional pegs.

I like the industrial sturdiness look of the bike, but I don't like the heim joints at the exhaust studs. They may work, but they grate on my sensibilities. I like the lack of down tube, but not the execution.

While I like the trellis frame, it lacks the grace of the Ducati Trellis.

So you may have a degree in industrial design, but that really doesn't mean anything to other eyes. The builders you mention don't make appealing bikes to me.

I like restorations, as they reflect the original designers intent, and a handful of builds on here. Most builds here are not to my liking aesthetically. I can appreciate the work and thought that went into them, but not the product of their work.

Your degree in industrial design is about as relevant to this or other builds as a Food chemist saying chocolate is better than strawberry....I still prefer chocolate.

Remember too, even art in it's purist form has likers and detractors. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. We've seen some real "works of art" on Craig's list. Those stretched out bikes with the seats 1 foot off the ground. I am sure we both find them UGLY, but someone thought it was nice because they commissioned it.

Just for the record, I would consult you on design, because of your background and experience. A product of our 2 minds might be lovely to us, but others may find it as odd as anything else we have seen here.


Edit: Guess so sonreir...The build evokes emotions...All good art does....

 

[Rich Ard]

Really? You guys are gonna clutter up this build thread with this shit?

I'm hoping to encourage Cyclhed to drown us out with a first run video.

 

[mydlyfkryzis]

I'm hoping to encourage Cyclhed to drown us out with a first run video.

Me too. ( good come Back Rich Ard).


Sent from planet Earth using mysterious electronic devices and Tapatalk

 

[Sonreir]

I'm hoping to encourage Cyclhed to drown us out with a first run video.

+1

I'm thinking I need a 540cc in my 360 now, too.

 

[rockcitycafe]

I think we should have an on site pool to donate to when we question the rideability of a bike, that pool would pay for shipping said bike to the nearest ahrma or wera track so it can be really tried out

 

[Rich Ard]

I'm in for ten bucks!

 

[cyclhed]

I think we should have an on site pool to donate to when we question the rideability of a bike, that pool would pay for shipping said bike to the nearest ahrma or wera track so it can be really tried out

I like that idea. The proof will be in the pudding as they say. You guys go ahead and jack away in between updates!

I don't understand how anybody would think that the frame geometry would not be correct, or that he would build a frame that was heavier than the stock Honda frame. Why would we do that? That would go against every rule of hot rodding. And I've already answered the questions about those two points in previous posts. Also the pegs are rear set. They just aren't the type that bolt to the frame like the conventional type some of you may be familiar with. Anyway everyone's feedback is invited, but I'm not that interested in arguing about the way it's been done. Some will love it and some will hate it. Some of the comments just show a lack of knowledge, experience, or imagination in my opinion. If it doesn't work; it'll be changed. Or maybe it'll be pushed into a corner of the shop and left there. But I think it will work. Also what is the point or the fun of doing it the same way everybody else does it? Anybody can start with an old Honda, do some minor mods to the frame, bolt a bunch of aftermarket cafe' racer bits on, spray some cool paint, and have an instant fad bike. This project started as punched out 360 engine. That engine needed a chassis so it evolved from there. It's one persons interpretation of a hot rod motorcycle. Categorize it any way you like.

 

[teazer]

.........
I don't understand how anybody would think that the frame geometry would not be correct, or that he would build a frame that was heavier than the stock Honda frame. Why would we do that? That would go against every rule of hot rodding. .........................

So. First off what has "hot rodding" to do with the price of eggs.

But to your question. It happens all the time though mission creep or good intentions at one stage being swamped by parts availability at a later stage, or through changes in direction or changes in design intent. That does tend to happen when building custom vehicles.

The comments about rear sets on the swingarm do tend to suggest a lack of appreciation for how bad that idea is on a performance motorcycle. On a Honda Cub, it maybe an OK idea, but a bike that this much work and through has been invested in - that just makes no sense to me as a mechanical engineer and rider. But it isn't my project and I won't ride it so it's a moot point. Just saying"......

 

[cyclhed]

Hot rodding, custom building, specials what ever you want to call them. Has everything to do with it and having fun doing it does also. Anyway here's something new for you chew on. Dual throat carburetor from the KZ1300 six cylinder and custom intake manifold.

There is a half mile road course across the street from where this bike is being built. When it's ready, we'll take the bike to the track and test it. We'll have to figure out some baseline data to compare it to, I don't have all of the details figured out yet, but it will be a good test of the chassis handling and engine performance.

 

[cyclhed]

Here it is installed.

Z1300 is a six cylinder, so it uses three, two throat Mikunis. Thats 215cc
per throat, the 540 has 270cc per cylinder, so it's not over sized.


I'm trying to get all (most, some) of the details done. Decided to move
the coil one more time to a cooler(temp) spot. the throttle cable will
be much easier with this carb also.